What America gets right about the abortion debate

[LesyaUkraina]

Interesting article in the Spectator today

www.google.com/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-america-gets-right-about-the-abortion-debate/amp

I think the article makes a very good point that the debate has pretty much been shut down in the UK, which is worrying as it is never a good sign when only one side are allowed to voice their opinions.

Is it "shut down"? My impression is that most people in Western Europe are happy with the fudge/compromise rules about abortion that prevail, which is why the whole issue is not really very controversial.

The problem isn't that people don't want to have a civilised, respectful debate - the problem is that pro-lifers tend not to respect the opinions and concerns of pro-choicers (not pro-abortion, we want women to have the choice no matter what they decide). I have yet to meet a pro-lifer who can suggest workable solutions for every problem that outlawing abortion would create, they certainly don't seem to care about the baby once it is born and believe it is somehow kinder to allow that child to suffer rather than giving the mother the opportunity to eliminate any chance of sufferance before the embryo even had a nervous system, and they rarely acknowledge that there are far more sinister and horrific reasons behind some unwanted pregnancies than simply feckless mothers (and it is always the mother who is blamed).

I fail to see how it is ethically to force sexually abused children, rape victims and domestic abuse victims to continue with an unwanted pregnancy. I fail to see how it is ethically sound to allow children to be born into poverty, or neglectful/abusive households, or thrown into an overstretched, underfunded care system to then be kicked aside at 16. I fail to see how it is ethically sound to leave women feeling so desperate that they will find other ways of terminating their pregnancies - often leading to serious injury, illness or death. Banning abortion doesn't prevent abortion - it just puts women in incredibly dangerous situations and stops them seeking medical attention when something goes wrong.

And fucking lol at ‘morally sound’, which is a bit rich when this is the reality of the pro life position:

“Around 45% of all abortions are unsafe, of which 97% take place in developing countries.
Unsafe abortion is a leading – but preventable – cause of maternal deaths and morbidities. It can lead to physical and mental health complications and social and financial burdens for women, communities and health systems”

www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/abortion

So pro lifers can get to fuck. Respecting someone’s right to have an opinion is quite different from respecting their opinion. I don’t respect pro lifers, any more than I respect any other brand of fascist.

This. I would be dead if it were not for abortion. A woman in my country died a few years before abortion was brought in here(Ireland) in pretty much the same situation I was in. The only difference was I was allowed to terminate, she wasn't. Womens health care shouldn't be up for debate.

There was the case of a brain dead pregnant woman being left on life support, deteriorating until she was almost unrecognisable whilst her family watched and pled for her life support to be turned off but it had to go to court because she was pregnant and turning off the life support would end the pregnancy too.

There was a great facebook page 'In her shoes' around the time of the ref here, I'm not sure if it is still going, it really showed the reality of a country where termination isn't legal and it was heartbreaking reading. There is nothing ethical about what happened to women here prior to abortion being made legal.

people who don't know how to have sensible, respectful discussions

I also think that a lot of women would find it very hard to have a sensible discussion with someone who doesn't respect their ethical right to bodily autonomy. It's hardly fair to ask for respect from someone when you are disrespecting them.

Absolute misogynistic nonsense. Hardly surprising given It’s in The Spectator. Are you actually aware of what’s currently happening in the US ?

So you’re pro-life, are you, OP? Can you clarify exactly what that entails, in terms of the support you provide for women forced to carry and give birth to babies that they don’t want? What money have you contributed to fund counselling services for women forced to carry and give birth to babies that were conceived through rape or incest? What campaigning have you done to improve the welfare system to care for women forced to have another child when they can’t afford the ones they have? What campaigning are you doing in the area of climate change so that we can continue giving birth in our already grimly overpopulated country?

Or is it just so much misogynistic bullshit?

Your mistake is to state abortion is a morality issue. It is actually a public health and human rights issue. In terms of law and access, morality is a total red herring.
What is wonderful is that women can make choices about their own bodies based on their own morality and belief. Long may that continue.

This thread is a great example of the point that discussion is shut down.
It is possible to have questions about both the morality of continuing an unwanted pregnancy and the morality of ending the life of a defenceless vulnerable human foetus.
The reason why the argument, "if you don't like abortion don't have one" does not hold its that abortion is a moral issue. This is why it is hotly debated and why there are time limits. We do not get to decide whether it is okay for us to steal or murder or assault someone. Why should we get a personal day on whether we can end the life of a foetus.
The pro choice lobby have tried to deny this and reduced the unborn baby to pretty much a ' blob of jelly' or ' clump of cells' which could equally be used to describe you or I but it's aimed to be dehumanising. In the same way the Hutu in Rwanda described the Tutsi as cockroaches for a year or two before the genocide. Language is very powerful and in the abortion debate we use language to belittle what we are doing.
I also hate the argument that pro lifers do nothing to care for unwanted babies.
I know numerous Christians who have adopted children and who foster regularly. There are Christian charities who support young mothers. Pro lifers do not hate women either. Most of them are women.
There are not easy answers to this and it is okay to accept that. Most who accept that are not extreme either way.
And before anyone accuses me of doing nothing to help the homeless, I spent 2 everyone this week helping a homeless charity, including 3 hours walking the streets of a local city with a trolley of food, sleeping bags etc.

OP I have always been pro choice. At DDs 20 week scan it became apparent that there was likely to be some kind of neurological problem. The doctor spoke about possible termination. Prior to becoming pregnant with DD I had always taken the view that if I found out that there was likely to be neurological damage I would terminate the pregnancy.

The reality was that having seen DD on the scans and having carried her I couldn't do that. But the issue is that I had a choice.

DD does have disabilities and i worry constantly what will happen to her when I die as she is unlikely to be able to ever live independently. I am lucky because I have supportive family but if the same situation had happened to someone who had no support network then abortion may have been a more realistic choice for them.

I don't see all the anti abortion people campaigning for better treatment for disabled people. All I hear are stories about how parents have to struggle constantly to get the best for their disabled children and often don't manage to succeed.

I don't believe that most women who have abortions do it lightly and I also don't believe that other people who will not have to live with the consequences of carrying on with a pregnancy should have any right to dictate what the woman should do.

It's interesting that a lot of the anti abortion supporters in America are also those who opposed vaccine mandates. My body my choice and all that. Oh unless you are a woman. As for the fact that some states don't want to make exceptions for rape, incest and even ectopic pregnancies my disgust for those legislators knows no bounds. Womens rights have never been under so much threat as they are today.

I think the article makes a very good point that the debate has pretty much been shut down in the UK, which is worrying as it is never a good sign when only one side are allowed to voice their opinions.

We don't have debates about men being able to beat their wives, whether slavery is good, if gay people should be put to death, or if children should be put up chimneys either. Because some ugly, horrible things are consigned to history (or geography) and we don't have to 'debate' them.

What you're trying to do is move the Overton window so 'debating' whether women should have rights is back on the table. We see you.

In places without legal abortions, abortions (of which there are huge numbers) are later, more dangerous, kill women, cause horrible harm and lead to women and doctors being imprisoned. In the UK, gestation times before abortions is low and decreasing. Women don't typically seek later abortions because we are capable of rational thought. You don't need to 'debate' these things because my bodily autonomy isn't your gift.

I don’t care about ‘debate’. Women having rights over their own bodies isn’t up for debate, and I’m not inclined to humour or validate those who think it is.

@vdbfamily the bottom line is an abortion has nothing to do with you. You don't have to like it but why the hell would you think a woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy she doesn't want? Why do you think women shouldn't have rights over their own body? The personal say is because pregnancy affects a woman's body for 9 months, that is what gives her the right to decide to continue with it or not.

Oh, and being called a twat for your opinion isn’t stopping you from sharing it. What you actually want, under the guise of civility, is for us to pretend that’s it’s a position worthy of respect. Well, no, that’s not how that works. Any position that strips women of rights and forces them to access unsafe abortion (which is the reality, no matter how much bleating about fetal rights you want to do) is one supported by a twat.

If you have an opinion that is wildly regarded as a shit one, you generally have to accept that it will be called that, and that you may even be called shit for holding it. If you don’t like that, then oh well 🤷🏻‍♀️

If you were 'pro-life' you'd be pro-abortion. Legal and safe abortions save lives. Anyone who believes women should be forced to carry and deliver babies they don't want/are medically unsafe to have, is about as far from morally sound and ethical as it's possible to get. Frankly, I think it should be considered torture to deny a woman an abortion if she wants one and murder if a woman is denied abortion if she needs one on medical grounds and dies from subsequent complications. And I have 3 children so I know exactly what pregnancy and births entails.

evenings even!

Just another voice to say that the US had a minimum wage long before the UK did. Also that there are lots of pro life people in the US and here who live deeply moral lives throwing themselves into the front line of caring for those at the margins of life. Also volunteering serious time and donating to nonprofits is far more a part of American life than it is here.

But that's because for many decades volunteering in the UK was something tied up with class - there came to be an image of the Lady Bountiful issuing deeply class based judgment about what the lives and the priorities of the poor should be like. That still happens (George Eustice and his value supermarket brands...) but we revolted against that and set up a welfare state instead. The idea being that the welfare state was for everybody and there was no judgment about when you could contribute to it and when you needed to take from it. No gratitude, no shame, just being a member of a community. We needed to eliminate the toxicity of class from that setup far more than the US did.

The right to access abortion has nothing to do with any of that. I will never force anyone to have an abortion. I just don't want to be forced to give birth.

The problem with banning abortion is that it leads to women dying. So if you are anti abortion, you're pro women dying. I don't see how that is a moral position to take.

Oh what a shite article. No mention that when someone walks into an abortion clinic in the US they may be walking through an absolute shit show of noise, placards and protestors. That to refuse to do that walk with your head down isn't about 'glee' it's about refusing to be cowed or shamed, about taking pride in something necessary that was fought for, about standing against the times when women passed abortion addresses to each other on slips of paper they could destroy afterwards and never speak of again.

I'll stop you right there. No one is pro-abortion.

We are pro-choice.

Abortion will
NEVER be stopped

Only safe Abortion can be stopped.

Abortion is health care not a 'moral' issue.

It's women's health care, something that you forced birther types can't seem to wrap your head around.

Abortion is also a class issue. Rich women will ALWAYS be able to travel to/ afford access to abortion.

Just stop. For the love of all things decent OP. Just stop.

Why should there be a debate over a woman’s autonomy over her own body

should we debate if rape is sometimes ok too

we have moved on in this country (thought there are plenty of discussions around the subject)

When thinking about the abortion debate in the US, two phrases come to mind. Blessed be the fruit and under his eye.

Fucked up doesn’t even come close to describing what’s happening over there.

A sizeable number of Americans care about fetuses but don't two shits about actual children

According to the United Nations they rank near the bottom of advanced countries for child wellness. In 2020 they were 4th from the bottom of the list in indicators for physical and mental well being that took into consideration a wide range of issues from pollution, to reading/writing ability, to poverty, depression and anxiety. Americans are hardly standing on the moral high ground.

But morally, why is the woman's life more important. In the majority of pregnancys that end in abortion, the couple had a choice and chose not to use contraception. In the vast majority of cases, if abortion was not readily available, the woman would go on to have and love that baby. The numbers of abortions , now they are easy to access, are way higher than the numbers of illegal abortions because abortion itself has for many been minimised to the equivalent of having a tooth removed.
Ending the life of a human foetus is as immoral if not more so than forcing a woman to carry to term.
Accepting one thing is immoral does not mean another thing is not also immoral.

Still trying to shift that window.

No one cares if you think abortion is immoral. Think it all you like, you’re not going to stop anyone accessing it if needed. You think you have the right to have a say in other people’s medical business, and get butt hurt when they reasonably tell you to fuck off. Laughable.