Ukraine Invasion: Part 24

[MagicFox]

Welcome one and all and thanks again to everyone contributing

So hide behind other countries then. Might as well be a sofa. The cowardice would be the same either way.

We're already a potential target for Putin. He's got enough on his hands in Ukraine tbh.

@BringBackCoffeeCreams ah sorry for wanting not to get attacked. How stupid of me

@elephantmarchingin if it’s any reassurance Finland/Sweden also already have the EU mutual defence clause (which of course the U.K. don’t have) so it doesn’t single us out if anything it brings us in a bit I think?

It would be nice if we could stop with the "cowering behind the sofa", "hiding under the duvet" rhetoric and outright calling people who are uncomfortable with the boots on the ground/only British boots on the ground narrative cowards. I was asked to keep the threads respectful when I suggested that there was cognitive dissonance/a degree of hypocrisy among those who held hawkish views but also appeared concerned about Pateushev's actions (or "the hawk's hawk"). I think respect goes both ways and room needs to be made for both mentalities, people with alternative views to you are not automatically cowards, they just disagree with you.

I agree with this. I feel nervous about it all but by the same token I suppose I’d rather go down fighting than live in a world where we stand back and watch rampant depravity towards a nation by another which feels it’s entitled just to walk in and take away its independence. A free life is worth living, I don’t want to live like people in Russia do. And maybe it would come to that if we don’t fight back now.

Nobody wants to get attacked. But hiding while others get picked off isn't the answer. It just means there'll be nobody left to help when your turn comes.

'First they came for the socialists ...'

@toastfiend well said! I’ve certainly not kept my fears a secret and have been hugely grateful for the reassurance and well informed responses I’ve had at various wobbly stages throughout this. I don’t think it’s abnormal to worry about what’s happening, it’s a scary time. I certainly shiver about things spilling into a wider war and am first to admit I get my duvet out at any sniff of that or just generally get a bit squeaky bum time when we do things that might be perceived as provocative (and I understand why sometimes these things are needed but still makes me cringe) but yes see this as a safe space for people to ask questions and generally tend to initiate discussion and informative feedback from people who are a lot better informed than I could ever be!

I am going to be really pissed of if I do not get one of those big new shiny ones incoming at 7,000 mph. But just my friggin' luck I go out in the garden and have one of those old ones built in 1950, sticking out of the lawn , hissing quietly, bit of rust on its fins which could me a nasty rash if I pick up a bit of tetanus. Personally, I think I'm worth but it would be just my luck and true to form if its a Russian dud.

I'm in Sweden. I'm also pretty scared right now. My government are telling me to prepare for war, to think about how I'll use my basement as a fallout shelter for my children, what the various alarms means and how to respond. I get a bit prickly when people suggest that if the worst happens we should be left to sink or swim.

@BringBackCoffeeCreams at least you have basements etc. we are just as much in the firing line now

@TargusEasting

"I'm in Sweden. I'm also pretty scared right now. My government are telling me to prepare for war, to think about how I'll use my basement as a fallout shelter for my children, what the various alarms means and how to respond. I get a bit prickly when people suggest that if the worst happens we should be left to sink or swim"

What?! Yeah this is bloody scary. This is what I meant this morning about feeling like we're pre- world war. This is awful @BringBackCoffeeCreams. What scenarios are they describing?

I might be wrong , but we are still members of nato , so surely if putin attacks us other members must assist us?

CNN reporting that the US ambassador delivered an undisclosed message to the Russian foreign ministry on Wed. Apparently the 2 met for 20mins (which apparently is about average). Wonder what they spoke about….

My husband's in the military. I'm pretty scared of what boots on the ground would look like for me and mine and I get a bit prickly when I constantly see people shouting "we should do something!!" on here without any acknowledgement of what that means for the people who would actually be doing the "something" and their families. I still don't think that's an excuse to throw insults at people, I'm afraid, and I actually agree with the poster who asked me to keep things respectful that it's important to do so on this thread, so I'm trying to hold my tongue. It does go both ways, though.

I can just see it. Fiona Bruce at the local National Trust house filming Antiques Roadshow the week after next.

FB: "On this week's Basic, Better, Best we have a rather odd assortment of nuclear missiles brought to the venue by local parishioners."

Expert: "Yes indeed Fiona, and remarkably they are all still in good condition. A couple of dents in one or two, but nothings really broken up at all really."

FB: "So, what age are they?"

Expert: "Well, this one dates from 1952, this one from 1974 and this one from 2021. All are of Russian origin."

FB: "And therefore, completely worthless?"

Expert: "Indeed."

The Russians could walk / drive into Finland.
The UK is not in the same category.

I think they're trying to keep everyone calm, it's all fine, nothing to see, everything is stable etc. But at the same time putting out links to fallout shelters map so you can find your nearest shelter in your town. There's 2 in mine, enough for 50 people in a town of 6,000. Then links to the government contingency planning portal which gives you a checklist of emergency supplies you are expected to have in. This is expected in normal times too but they're reminding us.

A few weeks ago they tested the 'air-raid' sirens, which they do regularly, but this time they put out a reminder of what the various signals mean and directed people to the emergency alert app in areas where there are no sirens.

I've been in Sweden for 15 years and have never had this before.

You're really not, there would have to be massive escalations before the UK would be in the actual firing line.

For those interested in today’s meetings and the number of boots potentially involved…

From Dan Sabbagh

“@dansabbagh

Finland will be a useful military ally to the UK in the unlikely event of a Russian attack on Britain. Tradition of conscription means that, if the reserve is mobilised, Finnish army size is 280,000. Meanwhile the UK can manage 103,550 (regulars + reserves)”

twitter.com/dansabbagh/status/1524433781200932864?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1524433781200932864%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2022%2Fmay%2F11%2Frussia-ukraine-war-zelenskiy-says-ukrainian-forces-gradually-pushing-occupiers-away-from-kharkiv-liveblock-627bf0528f083b85637987a3

It's the same here @BringBackCoffeeCreams though more along the lines of what possible consequences are expected and what's being done to protect against them e.g. limiting how much power can come in the electricity lines from Russia so they can't do power surges to damage our electric grid and building more border fences etc.

Thank you. Suddenly the thread got a bit terrifying. This has calmed it all down a lot for me. I really needed the use of the word ‘unlikely’.

we have to support each other in Europe. Everything has changed. It’s the right thing to do. But everything suddenly did feel more frightening.

thanks again to all for these threads. They do really help in conjunction with a few other sources.

@BringBackCoffeeCreams gosh no that is terrifying. I appreciate the difference between the U.K. geographically but sometimes I do worry that our government would be as quick to act/as prepared for war or a nuclear strike as they were for covid aka not very at all and we will all just be carrying on like nothing is happening and then will be bombed to bits. At the same time I sort of wouldn’t want us to start being told to prepare for it as I think I’d have an anxiety meltdown - a true ostrich here.

Agree. UK are nowhere near in the same category. I have family who live in Sweden and the sense I always get is that the Govt there are far more prepared generally than in the UK. I think it’s fair to say that if they choose to pursue nato membership then the accession period would probably see plenty of Willy waggling from Putin etc. I suspect that the UK signing this pact is an attempt to ensure that it remains just that, posturing. I’d also be very surprised if it hasn’t been discussed and agreed by NATO and with the US as a sensible way forward.