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Ukraine Invasion: Part 24

1000 replies

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 17:40

Welcome one and all and thanks again to everyone contributing

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Igotjelly · 05/05/2022 20:10

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2022 20:02

My twitter user name atm is Russian Bridges Go Boom.

Anyway...

Jimmy AT JimmySecUk
A rather ominous website that has appeared warning of the imminent destruction of the Crimean Bridge, complete with a countdown timer.

Its probably nothing, but it would be quite something if it did go on May 9th.

This is a really stupid question I know but was the website alluding to Ukraine blowing it up?

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 20:13

If Putin pushes for peace this week, he will not be allowed to keep Mariupol or anywhere else.

Haven't seen any hope that he would push for peace even if he does declare some kind of victory. I feel he's more likely to escalate on May 9

OP posts:
saltedcaramelchocolate · 05/05/2022 20:15

.

Ijsbear · 05/05/2022 20:17

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2022 18:23

Bullshit.

It was manipulative. Nothing to do with wanting Israel’s support or for them to stay out of it.

Putin has never apologised for anything before. If someone has a pattern of behaviour and then breaks it, there's a reason. He does not back down. If he's apologising now - there's a reason.

It'll be a terrible one and it will not be genuine, but something is going on behind the scenes. Patterns don't break for no reason, and Putin sees any sort of admission of wrong-doing as weakness.

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 20:18

@Ijsbear like what?! Putin has de-escalated with Israel before so this isn't too far out of character

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PerkingFaintly · 05/05/2022 20:19

Brew Thanks for new thread – and for all your company and wisdom.

Ijsbear · 05/05/2022 20:20

oh, ok, did not realise that he had de-escalated before. In that case ... right, sheer manipulation.

The question remains tho, what does Israel offer him that's big enough that this man, who sees any apology or even talking as weakness, is willing to say Sorry?

Tillsforthrills · 05/05/2022 20:23

Thank you

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 20:24

@Ijsbear e.g. m.economictimes.com/news/defence/vladimir-putin-calls-for-de-escalation-in-israel-palestinian-clashes/articleshow/82573074.cms

I'm not sure re your question though and I'd like to know too!

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HappyWinter · 05/05/2022 20:28

Thanks for the new thread, this is from the Guardian live feed about evacuations from Mariupol, just posted ten minutes ago. I hope they are successful, it must be like hell on earth there.

New 'safe passage operation' under way around Mariupol – UN

The United Nations says a new safe passage operation is underway in and around the bombarded southern Ukrainian city of Mariupol, The Associated Press and Reuters are reporting.

Reuters has just “snapped” the news that UN secretary general António Guterres says a third operation is underway to evacuate civilians from the Azovstal steel plant.

And humanitarian spokesman Saviano Abreu tells AP the UN is working in coordination with the parties to the conflict and the International Committee of the Red Cross.

He says they will “share more information when the situation allows.”

It is not clear how many people are part of the evacuation and Abreu would not say whether people at the Azovstal steel plant are involved.

A similar joint evacuation effort brought 101 civilians out of the plant over the weekend.

Another brought out people from Mariupol and other communities on Wednesday.

blueshoes · 05/05/2022 20:46

Ukraine World AT Ukraineworld
Sanctions from Russia will NOT be lifted without Ukraine's consent: Germany's chancellor Scholz told Stern magazine in an interview.

Excellente. Puts the power back with Ukraine. Ukraine has more than earned it (not that a sovereign nation should ever need to) and continues to do so.

SerendipityJane · 05/05/2022 21:24

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EmeraldShamrock1 · 05/05/2022 21:32

Thank you for the thread. Pmk.

borntobequiet · 05/05/2022 21:35

The Putin/Trump dynamic is really something. Trump did overtly what Putin had done covertly for years, and benefited from it. Now Putin knows he can lie, deny and deny he (or Lavrov, or any other of his henchmen) lied, with impunity. Psychopaths learn from one another.

Gingerwarthog · 05/05/2022 21:39

Thanks for the thread (again).

ScrollingLeaves · 05/05/2022 21:39

What a lot there is to think about, following the discussions brought up on the previous thread this afternoon and early evening between those who are extremely wary of the idea of escalating this war, and those frustrated by standing back while Putin destroys Ukraine and its people.

I have found the points made by all concerned extremely valuable and want to thank everyone for being willing to say what they thought.

Following this, I tried to quickly find out a little of what Quakers think. Perhaps other people have too.

There are no easy answers even from the Quakers, especially as I couldn’t find anyone writing post the Mariupol civilian bombings or Bucha atrocities. Quakers advocate passive resistance but these show what can happen to people who are not resisting with arms.

Also I am not sure how much passive resistance is possible under a dictatorship where information is false, groups are broken up and transported, and people imprisoned for dissent.

Nevertheless it is very interesting to read what the Quakers say when they are being more specific such as in the link below “30 things ….” even if they are idealistic. I need to add that I am not well informed enough to know if any of the points there are based on false premises.

What a tragedy this war and all the other wars are. Think of what could have been done for the world with the money being spent on arms and and all that will be needed for rebuilding. Yet being well armed and part of NATO now feels essential. It is horrible.

Quaker Pacifism in the Context of War | Friends Committee On National Legislation
True pacifism is not inaction; it is non-violent resistance to injustice. However, Quakers are not united on this issue, and there are no easy answers to be found. Each Friend must discern for themselves their relationship to the ethics of pacifism.

As Carl Abbott wrote in Quakers, A Quick Guide: “Choices about whether and how to participate in the military are individual decisions. Wars in which one side is more evil than the other, such as the American Civil War and World War II, create special dilemmas.”

While Quakers can all agree that war is not the answer and that nonviolent solutions to conflict are ideal, some moments test our values. Today we are facing one such moment.

www.fcnl.org/updates/2022-03/quaker-pacifism-context-war

Alternatives to Military Violence - Quaker Concern

quakerconcern.ca/alternatives-to-military-violence/

Daniel Hunter, “Ukraine’s secret weapon may prove to be civilian resistance,” Waging Nonviolence, Feb 27 2022,https://wagingnonviolence.org/2022/02/ukraine-secret-weapon-civilian-resistance ↵

See for instance Urie Bronfenbrenner, “The Mirror Image in Soviet-American Relations: A Social Psychologist’s Report,” Journal of Social Issues 17, no. 3 (1961).

For one list of multiple options Russia and Ukraine could both have used instead of war see:
worldbeyondwar.org/30-nonviolent-things-russia-could-have-done-and-30-nonviolent-things-ukraine-could-do;
[This is very interesting]

for a statement signed by many peace and conflict experts about why they do not believe in the effectiveness of a military response to the Russian invasion and what they would propose instead see wagingnonviolence.org/rs/2022/03/ukrainians-could-defeat-a-russian-occupation-by-scaling-up-unarmed-resistance.^

Ijsbear · 05/05/2022 21:41

Putin played Trump like the master he is. Look at the bodylanguage when Trump met Putin. Trump is almost slavering over Putin's hand.

Putin is what Trump would like to be, I think. Pigs will be asking for flight clearance first though.

There was speculation that Putin might be undergoing surgery this week. Wonder if that was true and if anything has come of it.

Most of all though I can't help thinking that taking 200 senior officers out in the attack on the command post in the Donbass must really be hindering their invasion. Specially since Russia is a top-down army.

Ijsbear · 05/05/2022 21:44

@ScrollingLeaves Those are really interesting. thank you for looking them up.

Quakerism is a small religion but the world would be a better place with more of them. They don't shy away from the hard questions even if their tenets push them one way.

Ijsbear · 05/05/2022 21:57

uh, some of the World Beyond War points are a bit silly. Cherry picking a few:

What Russia could have done instead of invade:

  • Continued evacuating people from Eastern Ukraine who felt threatened by the Ukrainian government, military, and Nazi thugs.
  • Sent into Donbas many thousands of unarmed civilian protectors.
  • Offered as gifts to Ukraine the world’s leading solar, wind, and water energy production facilities.
  • Offered as a gift to Ukraine electric infrastructure
  • Committed to not maintaining weapons or troops within 100, 200, 300, 400 km of any borders, and requested the same of its neighbours
I think that any organisation dedicated to peace has to be dedicated to realism as well as peace. Russia could have done these but was never, ever going to.
TiddyTidTwo · 05/05/2022 22:08

Fantastic re Biden/scholz not recognising Putins land grab and that Ukraine will decide. That's strong

TiddyTidTwo · 05/05/2022 22:15

Do they mean crimea too?

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2022 22:20

Some thoughts and reflections after looking through a pile of stuff on twitter.

Phillips P OBrien keeps making the point that we give no agency to Ukraine. Instead we give it all to Russia, and that this is wrong headed. He reflects that actually Putin now has very few military options left to him.

It looks as if the Russian momentum is beginning to unwind. Kherson region looks particularly vulnerable. Then there's the big push back near Kharkiv. The Russians seem now to have only just cottoned on to the fact that this will affect the road between Izyum and Belogorod. Perhaps too late. And then movement along the Donbas front seems to have stalled. This has been following the take out of a major command post. So whether its a leadership or military strength issue, is somewhat debatable, though both are important.

Trent Telenko has said for sometime he expects the logistical ability in terms of maintenance and equipment to run out around mid to late May.

This makes things even more difficult for Putin. Lavrov played down the significance of 9th May, which was interesting in its own right. Not because he is lying though his teeth (talking) but because clearly theres pressure about the date being applied and there is a feeling of Putin needing to deliver something.

Which neatly brings us around to the point that its not just Putin's military options than are contracting. So are his political ones, both domestically and internationally.

Putin today has poured cold water over Israel. I said its bullshit, but yes others are right, it might be worth reflecting on Putin’s narrowing political options here. Israel being neutral gives him political capital and leverage.

I also note at this point the position of Turkey again, who recently shut airspace to Russia. Why? Why reverse on that decision. Then theres an interesting BBC article today about how the cost of living in Turkey has gone up 70% in a year. And thats before global food shortages kick in.
See:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-61332272

Also note the financial predictions about the Russian economy starting to go into freefall from mid May.

And there's been a suggestion that instead of escalation he may go for a strategic victory option. Take out Mariupol and its Nazis, then go for peace talks that the Ukrainians can't and wont ever agree to, to try and split international relationships and political will admid a cost of living crisis.

Note the intervention of Scholz today saying that Ukraine decides about sanctions and the intervention of Biden and Scholz about Russia needing to leave Ukrainian soil. That wouldn't be being done, if both didn't think that Russia was trying to play silly buggers in order to retain its gains through now suing for peace. Afterall the invade and grad and settle pattern is the one Putin has repeated over and over. And this has caused a settlement that pleases the West. The West is putting on a united front and saying NO firmly, which puts Putin in a bind and unable to gain in the manner in which he has become accustomed...

This is far from Putin Gonna Nuke Us rhetoric. Its a clear sign that reality isn't quite the click bait we are used to seeing.

Lets go further....

Kamil Galeev has put up a couple of threads in the last couple of days. Rather than post them all, I going to summarise one of his key points from both.

First of all he says there is near to zero chance of a revolution coming from the unarmed civilian population.

Then he starts to talk about the 1917 revolution and how it wasn't a revolution of the unarmed civilian population. Instead it was men who had been armed and were due to go to war who decided that this wasn't in their best interests and it was only in the interests of the elites. The Tsar was warned there might be a problem but instead of addressing demands he ignored them and paid the price.

Kamil Galeev argues that a full scale mobilisation by declaring war risks the same scenario, especially since all major routes to Ukraine apart from neighbouring Russian regions to Ukraine, have to pass through Moscow where there would be an inevitable build up in armed men who know that going to war isn't in their best interests. Thus this poses a risk to the Kremlin.

He then takes about whether Putin will declare war. The key tweet is this

Kamil Galeev AT Kamilkanzi
And yet, if mobilisation is declared only in regions immediately bordering Ukraine, such as Bryansk, Kursk, Belgorod, Voronezh and Rostov, then cannon fodder flows don't have to pass through Moscow, thus reducing revolutionary risks dramatically.

This tweet was only put up this evening.

Interestingly this seems to tie with an observation currently floating around on twitter:

Canadian Ukrainian Volunteer AT CanadianUkrain1
Russia is conducting covert mobilization in Rostov region and Krasnodar territory, and is preparing for a possible announcement of partial mobilization in Belgorod, Kursk and Bryansk regions.

Its interesting to see this voiced as a possibility because it doesn't seem to be one on the radar of Western Analysts. It is interesting that the cultural, historical and present background seems to be being ignored.

So will this be a more likely choice by Putin than a declaration of all out war (or even war against NATO directly)

This would strike me as fairly important.

As would Lukashenko's intervention in saying no nukes in Ukraine (because you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work out that nuking Kyiv might not be too clever for Belarus both politically and physically). Again the idea that nukes can be contained within the borders of a target is military illiteracy. Quite clearly Lukashenko is making a point that there would be political fall out from doing so. (You might want to refer back to an earlier thread Kamil Galeev had about the bumbling country bumpkin Lukashenko who wasn't Putin’s puppet after all and instead manipulated and controlled Putin in his own way). Lukashenko doing this interview at all is interesting. It put Putin into a situation where Lukashenko has to be censored and the interview can not be shown in Russia. Remember Lukashenko said it was a war and he thought it wasn't going so well.

This is Lukashenko making a point. The tail wagging the dog to use a phrase.

It was interesting that Galeev thought the whole relationship between Lukashenko and Putin was important enough to comment on in the first place.

And now, here we are. Two, perhaps, rather important snippets of information which may be being lost but perhaps are a lot more significant and relevant than those of us in the West without this contextual knowledge might be completely over looking.

If either or both are true, it really does shift the dynamics of what Putin is liable to do next and I'd argue is much more influential than Russian TV pundits.

Putin's biggest fear is ending up like Gaddafi. Think about it. Trying to stop a coup or open hostility / challenges to him are more important than nuking everyone. This is where the rational actor v crazy man idea is most relevant. I still see nothing that makes me think Putin isn't rational. Misinformed, grotesquely immoral, drunk on a bunker mentality but not crazy. This matters.

Nothing here says 'about to nuke anyone'. You can look for it, but there isn't anything but a bunch of pundits on tv shouting about it. Its like saying the UK is going to do x, y or z because a crazy planted audience member on QuestionTime said it. Or one of the nutty guests said it.

Far more likely is the settling of scores in Mariupol. Having tried to take the base and being driven back out of it, there is one option left to Putin to clear it. Especially by 9th May. Hidden underground it wouldn't be seen and thus is deniable. But the Russians do still have to enter the complex sufficiently to enact such a scenario...

... Its been spectaculated on, numerous times, but chemical weapons seem to have got lost in all the frothing about nukes. Almost to the point where I'd argue that it desensitises us to the awfulness of chemical weapons because those hyperventilating can go 'oh well it least it wasn't nukes'. Maybe there's something in this too...

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2022 22:30

Ijsbear · 05/05/2022 21:44

@ScrollingLeaves Those are really interesting. thank you for looking them up.

Quakerism is a small religion but the world would be a better place with more of them. They don't shy away from the hard questions even if their tenets push them one way.

My Aunt and Uncle are practicing Quakers. They are good people. Intelligent. Hard working. But also I'd argue incredibly naive and have a tendancy to over simplify the world. In part because they actively chose a simpler lifestyle.

They moved to one of the furthest most remote places in the UK a few years back (which on reflection was stupid given their age, and has caused issues with access to health care).

Part of me aspires to be more like them, but I don't think they are realistic either.

They do confront the 'big ideas' but I also think they tend to wallpaper over the cracks in terms of actually having a viable answer to the difficult questions too.

Its a bit like a builder with the sucking his teeth over an issue. "I can fix it, but its gonna cost you a lot", so you ultimately find an alternative guy who just gets on with the hard graft rather than the pondering and ruminating over the possibilities, the lack of materials, how his mate is off sick etc etc by which time its too late.

In other words they look like theyve given it careful consideration but dont really have a solution anymore than anyone else. And they certainly dont have a workable point by point action plan. Just some nice ideology which is very nice to live by if you have the luxury of choice and not a fucking great big army invafing your country.

RedToothBrush · 05/05/2022 22:33

Don't get me wrong, i have a lot of time for quakerism. I just think its as flawed as any other ideology.

It lacks realism and pragmatism.

You cannot effectively run a country without realism and pragmatism.

You can try, but in blindly following ideology, you always become unstuck at some point.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/05/2022 22:35

l s j b e a r 05/05/2022 21:57
Re: Quaker World Beyond War what 30 things Russia could have done rather than invade.

I think that any organisation dedicated to peace has to be dedicated to realism as well as peace. Russia could have done these but was never, ever going to.

You are right, it is not realistic at all - especially as it was all “ could have done”.
I wonder what they would say now too when Russia’s atrocities have been so clearly exposed.

It is interesting to see some Quaker approaches in general though I think.

l j s b e a r I could not post using your name in the usual format as I got a message saying that username does not exist.

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