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Ukraine Invasion: Part 22

1000 replies

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 10:06

Here we are again

OP posts:
Thread gallery
34
Alexandra2001 · 24/04/2022 09:30

katem98 · 24/04/2022 06:50

Sorry @MagicFox , completely forgot to add a trigger warning. There aren’t any graphic pictures involved, just a picture of that poor 3 month old baby and her mother enjoying their day to day life - photo taken by her husband.

I find these stories the most powerful and thought provoking, they depict normal life before Putin shattered it.

Graphic images, though nightmarish don't seem (for me) to do this, its easy to become desensitised, much like the terrible famine images we see.

I remember on the Covid boards being told by so many, we were all heading for a roaring twenties style boom as we can came out of lockdowns.... how much more wrong could anyone be?

though perhaps for some, its still the case.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/04/2022 09:41

Igotjelly · 24/04/2022 07:16
Watching Putin taking mass, how he isn’t terrified for his immortal soul I have no idea because that fucker is going straight to hell!

See below video clip of Michael Corleone ‘renouncing Satin’

www.google.com/search?q=Godfather+christening+scene&rlz=1CDGOYI_enES868ES869&oq=Godfather+christening+scene&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i22i30j0i390l4.12587j0j4&hl=en-GB&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6ac3100c,vid:1CDlBLvc3YE,st:0

It is probably calculated to make the Russian people think he is leading a Holy War.

It is evil.

CPL593H · 24/04/2022 10:04

There is a lot of anger in the Orthodox world about the role of Patriarch Kirill and his support for Putin. Some examples. An Orthodox church in Amsterdam (St Nicholas of Myra) previously under the Moscow Patriarchate, refused to commemorate Kirill during services and was put under considerable pressure to comply, including having the 'Z' symbol graffitied on their doors. They have now broken with Moscow and been accepted by Patriarch Bartholomew in Constantinople. A group of over 300 priests in Russia have put signature to a letter condemning the war. I think we can imagine how brave they were to do this.

Kirill has been accused of phyletism, which is basically the conflation of ethno-nationalism with religion, actually a heresy in Orthodoxy (with good reason, because it ends up with what we are seeing now) This article in the Church Times details the letter sent by a number of Orthodox theologians condemning his actions. It is pretty theological but does sum up the objections.

www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2022/25-march/comment/opinion/russian-world-ideology-is-destructive

CPL593H · 24/04/2022 10:11

Adding to say apologies if this has been shared before, haven't been able to completely keep up with the threads.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/04/2022 10:40

The Patriarchs are basically part of the state machine, it's always been like this.

TheABC · 24/04/2022 11:14

Thank you @CPL593H for posting that. "Not in my name" does get noticed, even if it feels like a meaningless gesture.

The ethno-religious trend is not unique to Russia (just think of the crusades), but it's particularly pointed when you see it turned against a fellow nation with the same church.

I remember reading "World War Z", almost a decade ago. The book was about a zombie outbreak in retrospective reporting mode. It correctly predicted our collective response to Covid-19 (including the Chinese authorities covering up the initial problem) and the Russians resorting to tyranny with recruits forced to hurt their own comrades. The book was supposed to be a dystopian fantasy but now I am wondering how much was based on behavioural research....

L1ttledrummergirl · 24/04/2022 11:17

Igotjelly · 24/04/2022 07:16

Watching Putin taking mass, how he isn’t terrified for his immortal soul I have no idea because that fucker is going straight to hell!

The a school of thought in spiritualism that when you die you are greeted by those who have gone before you.
Anyone you have touched through life will be there, so where as most people make their own heaven, some will be making their own hell.
I hold on to this.

prettybird · 24/04/2022 11:21

For those like me who are struggling to get bookmarks to "fix" since the inept "upgrade" (they keep reverting back to an old one Hmm - which on a fast moving thread like this one is useless Angry), I think I've discovered a work around, at least on the iOS appShock

You need to un bookmark your old book mark Confused, come out the thread and then go back in, flip and re- bookmark Confused

It shouldn't be such a faff but there you are Hmm

Ijsbear · 24/04/2022 11:33

@CPL593H I hadn't seen that no, thank you.

It's not my place to judge but I couldn't help finding that line again ... Matthew 23 ‘Lord, Lord’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

I remember reading "World War Z", too. I found it powerful stuff (don't usually read that sort of thing at all but someone really recommended it). It was like an epidemiological study in a way, complete with the awareness of how humans turn on each other sometimes.

I've just looked up the author and he's a senior fellow at the Modern War Institute at West Point, New York.[3]! (Wiki) but no further info on that one single line.

Ijsbear · 24/04/2022 12:03

RTB some confirmation of your earlier post about retaking 8 villages and Russian troops retreating

The Kyiv Independent
@KyivIndependent
·
2h
Armed Forces: Ukraine regains control of eight settlements in Kherson Oblast. Having faced heavy losses in the region, Russian forces have retreated towards Chornobaivka, a suburb of occupied Kherson, reports Ukraine’s Operational Command South on April 24.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/04/2022 12:15

@CPL593H · 24/04/2022 10:04

There is a lot of anger in the Orthodox world about the role of Patriarch Kirill and his support for Putin. Some examples. An Orthodox church in Amsterdam (St Nicholas of Myra) previously under the Moscow Patriarchate, refused to commemorate Kirill during services and was put under considerable pressure to comply, including having the 'Z' symbol graffitied on their doors. They have now broken with Moscow and been accepted by Patriarch Bartholomew in Constantinople. A group of over 300 priests in Russia have put signature to a letter condemning the war. I think we can imagine how brave they were to do this.

Kirill has been accused of phyletism, which is basically the conflation of ethno-nationalism with religion, actually a heresy in Orthodoxy (with good reason, because it ends up with what we are seeing now) This article in the Church Times details the letter sent by a number of Orthodox theologians condemning his actions. It is pretty theological but does sum up the objections.

www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2022/25-march/comment/opinion/russian-world-ideology-is-destructive

Thank you very much for this very interesting information which hasn’t been posted before as far as I know.

Philetism is a new word for me too. It is good the church recognises philetism as being heresy.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/04/2022 12:20

Phyletism.

Ijsbear · 24/04/2022 12:25

From one of the Bellingcat leaders (therefore imo trustworthy given that they are very careful with their research).

Sasha Ingber
@SashaIngber
·
23h
NEW: Russian diplomats expelled by Poland were targeting Ukrainian refugees, "even in contact with them and blackmailing them with the fate of their families in Ukraine," says a Polish official. Experts inc
@Mpolymer

@PeterZwack
say expulsions curb but don't stop intel operations

Muminabun · 24/04/2022 12:40

@CPL593H thankyou for that strong and unequivocal article re the Orthodox Church. The cultural implications of the war are so far reaching. I have been reading about the Russian cultural phenomena of ‘vranyo’ which explains why it seems to those of us looking in, it seems ok for putin to constantly lie and everyone in Russia seems ok and oblivious to this as a society.
@Alexandra2001 I live near Brighton and the churches here and other groups has done so much everyone I know in and out of the church has donated money and things. We all care deeply, we do talk to each other about the war but we don’t go into detail because it is too upsetting. Even me and my husband don’t really want to speak of the atrocities. We tend to only talk of the positive things we hear.
there are thousands who watch these threads avidly but they move fast and it’s hard enough keeping up let alone posting anything.

videokilledtheradiostar1 · 24/04/2022 12:58

@Igotjelly I was so angry when I saw that beast quoting from the Bible during his rally about, 'Greater love have no man than one who lays down his life for others.' It refers to Jesus not the Russian army 😡
The only shred of comfort I have is firmly believing in judgement day and his terror being greater than anything he has inflicted on anyone.
I do not know how he can take mass knowing that he is a mass murderer.

videokilledtheradiostar1 · 24/04/2022 13:00

@Ijsbear I take comfort from Matthew 23.
Sadly, I am becoming an angry and judgemental person.

ScrollingLeaves · 24/04/2022 13:01

@Muminabun · 24/04/2022 12:40

@CPL593H thankyou for that strong and unequivocal article re the Orthodox Church. The cultural implications of the war are so far reaching. I have been reading about the Russian cultural phenomena of ‘vranyo’ which explains why it seems to those of us looking in, it seems ok for putin to constantly lie and everyone in Russia seems ok and oblivious to this as a society.

I had never heard of ‘Vranyo’ before and have now looked it up. Thank you for drawing attention to it. While perhaps white lying could be said to form part of our society too, this mutual, willing participation in something completely false seems to be very Russian.

From this:
glossophilia.org/2018/09/vranyo-a-previously-untranslatable-russian-word/

In his essay, ‘A Word or Two about Vranyo’, Dostoyevsky tried to uncover why ‘everyone lied in Russia down to the last figure’. True, he believed that women lied less, but among the intellectual classes ‘a non-lier is an impossibility’; even completely honest people can lie in Russia , which he was convinced only scoundrels did in other nations. He noted that vranyo was greeted with ‘delicate reciprocity’ at all social gatherings of his day, making the lie a two-way collaboration; and as he felt vranyo and lozh were largely interchangeable, the perpetrator and victim colluded in serious forms of lying as well.” — Daphne Skillen in her book Freedom of Speech in Russia: Politics and Media from Gorbachev to Putin, 2016

DFOD · 24/04/2022 13:13

ScrollingLeaves · 24/04/2022 13:01

@Muminabun · 24/04/2022 12:40

@CPL593H thankyou for that strong and unequivocal article re the Orthodox Church. The cultural implications of the war are so far reaching. I have been reading about the Russian cultural phenomena of ‘vranyo’ which explains why it seems to those of us looking in, it seems ok for putin to constantly lie and everyone in Russia seems ok and oblivious to this as a society.

I had never heard of ‘Vranyo’ before and have now looked it up. Thank you for drawing attention to it. While perhaps white lying could be said to form part of our society too, this mutual, willing participation in something completely false seems to be very Russian.

From this:
glossophilia.org/2018/09/vranyo-a-previously-untranslatable-russian-word/

In his essay, ‘A Word or Two about Vranyo’, Dostoyevsky tried to uncover why ‘everyone lied in Russia down to the last figure’. True, he believed that women lied less, but among the intellectual classes ‘a non-lier is an impossibility’; even completely honest people can lie in Russia , which he was convinced only scoundrels did in other nations. He noted that vranyo was greeted with ‘delicate reciprocity’ at all social gatherings of his day, making the lie a two-way collaboration; and as he felt vranyo and lozh were largely interchangeable, the perpetrator and victim colluded in serious forms of lying as well.” — Daphne Skillen in her book Freedom of Speech in Russia: Politics and Media from Gorbachev to Putin, 2016

Must be genetic as our own BoJo has this tendency and he claims to have Russian ancestry.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 24/04/2022 13:19

Ok this concept of vranyo blows my mind. Basically telling outright lies is socially acceptable and those being lied to play along with it. So in effect, everyone just ends up lying?! How does anyone know which way is up? And could this mean that when Putin calls this illegal war a special military operation, the Russian population know that's code for illegal invasion?

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 24/04/2022 13:25

@videokilledtheradiostar1 making judgements is really important for drawing lines and keeping people safe. I have no issue making judgements about my behaviour or other people's.

blueshoes · 24/04/2022 13:25

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2022 08:26

Get the salt and spread liberally for this
Canadian Ukrainian Volunteer AT CanadianUkrain1
Lots of updates.

Our forces have regained control over 8 settlements in Kherson region. Russian concentration of manpower and equipment in the area of Kiselivka for an upcoming attack on Posad-Pokrovske was hit. The enemy suffered heavy losses and retreated towards Chornobaivka. The total losses of the enemy are:

70+ personnel, 13 units of equipment, including 2 tanks, one MLRS, 6 units of armored and engineering equipment and 4 reconnaissance UAVs.

Glory to Ukraine

Also:
Alleged phonecall by Russian solider in Mykolaiv area
Invaders flee from the Mykolaiv region: "There is no one to fight, there are alcoholics"

A military man from the Russian Federation said that Putin's army near Mykolaiv was suffering enormous losses, people were leaving and leaving.

The Russian tanker said that his colleagues near Mykolaiv were either dying or fleeing from here. According to the invader, 7 people remained from his platoon, despite the fact that initially there were 19 of them. In a telephone conversation, the soldier said that reinforcements were not arriving to the Russian army, everyone was just leaving. "Only the most persistent and alcoholics are left here," the rashist said in an audio recording intercepted by the SBU and published on the Telegram channel on April 23.

How much truth to the above?

Well the Russians apparently just lost a large number of officers and 2 generals (plus 1 general seriously injured) around the same area.

We've heard rumours of infighting between Russian troops.

There was another apparently recent phonecall where a Russian said to his wife he was literally going mad from all the attacks.

The Ukrainians keep having big hits at Chornobayivka.

There been insurgency in Kherson reported.

It seems to at least point to a significant problem developing for the Russians in this area. Canadian Ukrainian Volunteer said a few days ago (before the c&c attack) that they were waiting for opportunities to present themselves and hinted at something in the pipeline.

With the C&C gone, you might well expect a large breakdown in solider discipline to occur. And potential desertations of posts. Both of the above are consistent with other information we seem to have.

So I would tend to lean towards this having some potential substance and think this is worth keeping an eye on now.

RedToothBrush This is an example of where your measured analysis is really helping me and I hope others to process the news of Ukraine's military successes. Much as I would like to believe them, I presume there will be an element of morale boosting involved and hence, tempering with caution but clinging on for hope.

Really appreciate your cross-referencing and fact-checking.

prettybird · 24/04/2022 13:34

I think Orwell must have had elements of vranyo in mind when he created the word "doublethink" in 1984

It's scary how much of that book is coming true, although it's 40 years after he predicted Sad

Ijsbear · 24/04/2022 13:39

I think 1984 is much more here than we like to think, though in the UK / NL we aren't on the front line of the war.

Surveillance within homes (Alexa) which we have voluntarily chosen!

The absolute cynicism of the political classes especially I fear the Tories.

The lies, lies, lies and the literal doublethink that Russia appears to be infused with.

The Security Services taking you away if you do anything you're not supposed to.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/04/2022 13:50

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 24/04/2022 13:19

Ok this concept of vranyo blows my mind. Basically telling outright lies is socially acceptable and those being lied to play along with it. So in effect, everyone just ends up lying?! How does anyone know which way is up? And could this mean that when Putin calls this illegal war a special military operation, the Russian population know that's code for illegal invasion?

I’ve course they know. Cognitive dissonance can be very helpful when you don’t want to see what’s in front of your eyes.

“Vranyo” is very much like pulling the wool over your eyes. Everyone knows it, everyone participates in it, some willingly, some because they have no choice, others because it suits them.

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2022 13:54

This is really important article from the Atlantic

I Am a Governor of People, Not of Tombstones'
In the weeks since Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the leaders of the Donbas have had no easy choices.

Soon after russia invaded Ukraine, Pavlo Kyrylenko and Serhiy Gaidai received phone calls from men they believed to be Russians, based on their accents. Kyrylenko and Gaidai, the governors of the Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, respectively, were being enticed to defect. The pair—the top Ukrainian officials in parts of their country racked for years by conflict with Moscow-backed separatists—were offered the chance to join what the Russians were convinced would be their inevitable victory.

“This was before the phrase ‘Russian warship, go fuck yourself,’” Kyrylenko told me, sitting in the basement of a Donetsk regional-government building while an air-raid siren rang. “I didn’t have such an eloquent way to answer, so I blocked the number.”

And

Now, for leaders such as Kyrylenko and Gaidai as well as their people, there are no easy choices, only impossible ones.

For many western politicians and analysts, the Donbas is less an inviolable part of Ukraine and more an asset to be negotiated, to let Putin save face and end this war. When I spent time with them, both Gaidai and Kyrylenko stuck to the Ukrainian government’s line, that victory for Ukraine amounted to Russian troops returning to the positions they held before this latest invasion was launched. Yet they related that policy with a certain bitterness, noting that part of their homeland would thus remain in Russian hands.

(For Kyrylenko, the cleavage is personal. His parents and elder brother are widely known to live in separatist parts of the Donbas and support Russia. “I do not have any family there,” he told me. “Those people are not my family. Those who stay with me here now, they’re my family. Those people need to answer to the law. They have tried to contact me since then. I have nothing to say to them.”)

And

The pair are young—Kyrylenko is 35; Gaidai, 46. (Zelensky is 44.) It typically goes unnoticed that Ukraine is run by people in their 30s and 40s, mirroring the country’s own youthfulness, having gained independence in 1991 after the collapse of the Soviet Union. This is the generation that must now grapple with the dire consequences of Putin’s invasion.

When I was with him, Gaidai, wearing a military uniform and holding a gun, recalled how, recently, he had been trying to organize evacuations from parts of Luhansk that had fallen to the Russian military, but many of the buses required were sitting in newly occupied towns. “Yes, we coordinate with the army,” he told me, “but we cannot predict everything and be sure which towns will be taken first.” Every decision, he said, could result in a devastating mistake.

And

Gaidai told me that in the early stages of the war, Ukrainian troops withdrew from parts of the Luhansk region to avoid encirclement, concentrating instead on areas that they could capably defend and that held strategic significance. The decision initially appeared to have spared civilians unnecessary suffering—villages from which they fell back were not shelled. But then news emerged of alleged Russian atrocities in Bucha, a suburb of Kyiv, as well as other formerly Russian-occupied areas where local authorities were abducted and tortured, hundreds of civilians were executed, or killed while trying to escape, and cases of rape were recorded.

But if withdrawing from heavily settled areas doesn’t necessarily protect civilians, neither does staying and fighting. Mariupol offers clear evidence of the Russian military’s willingness to decimate an entire city holding out against an onslaught. Kyrylenko said he now worried that Russia would seek to subject the entirety of Ukrainian-controlled Donetsk to a “greater Mariupol” strategy, to “target all possible routes for the supply of food and ammunition, encircle the region, and don’t let people out.”

And

Gaidai and Kyrylenko have made repeated calls—in interviews, on Facebook, in person—for the 2.5 million residents of the Ukraine-controlled part of the Donbas to leave, yet I met many who either did not know where to go or felt unsafe leaving their homes for the unknown. The risks of evacuation, safer though it may be than staying, were underlined by a Russian strike on a train station in Kramatorsk, in Ukrainian-controlled Donetsk, where evacuees were congregating; 57 died, and more than 100 were wounded. Just days earlier, Kyrylenko and Gaidai had asked me not to specify the sites from which civilians were departing, afraid that they would be targeted.

Not everyone stays out of fear. Some stay out of duty. Among those I spoke with in the Donbas was Roman Vodyanyk, the head of the biggest—and, at present, only—hospital in Severodonetsk, who has argued that he and his staff must be the last to evacuate. There will always be people who do not want to leave, he reasons with the soldiers who have asked him to move to safety, and medics such as him will have to remain to help them.

And

So on this trip, while talking with people—Ukrainian officials among them—boundaries broke down, and in the end, we sought to support each other. From time to time, particularly after atrocities in Bucha or Mariupol were reported, I would ask how they were holding up. Kyrylenko was matter-of-fact when I checked in on him, focusing on the task at hand. “The war is not a place for heroism,” he told me, “but doing what you are supposed to. Concentrate on tasks you can accomplish.” Despite his military background, his mind was not on the battle, but on the people of the Donbas. “Make decisions thinking that only people who are alive matter. It’s about defending the region, but not ’til the last man,” he said. “In the end, I am a governor of people, not of tombstones.”

And

Why must we have to give up all that we have built over these past years—not just the physical places and infrastructure, but the sense of identity, of being Ukrainian—because a neighboring state has violently assaulted us? It feels as though the Kremlin is exacting punishment on an entire country simply because of who we are, and who we choose to be. To ask us to surrender and be subjugated because we have been threatened with death—that, too, presents an impossible choice.

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