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Ukraine Invasion: Part 21

1003 replies

MagicFox · 16/04/2022 21:01

Another thread, thank you to all

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cloudberry · 23/04/2022 09:19

It’s fine. While I agree with you @Igotjelly and do also think that a brief summary doesn’t hurt so that people can choose whether to click on the link or not and I thought it was a good point to make @MagicFox 🙂

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 09:23

@Igotjelly I don't think that warning about a post that might show eg a child's corpse (as per earlier) is sanitising. We are discussing everything on here and are very well versed in the crimes against humanity going on. I wouldn't say the people on this thread are unaware or trying to avoid seeing the horror of what's happening at all, quite the opposite. If we're going to see an image like that, though, we should have a choice in clicking to view it. Somebody made a good point earlier too about a fine line between showing atrocities for awareness and disrespectful gawping about the corpses of specific civilians. All I'm saying is we should avoid a shocking comment that doesn't reveal what it's about with a link attached to it

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MagicFox · 23/04/2022 09:23

Thanks @cloudberry . Appreciate the respectful discussions on this thread

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ScrollingLeaves · 23/04/2022 09:25

If anyone is interested in learning more about Transistria and Moldova, now that the Russian commander has said that this territory in part of their intentions in this war, The World Tonight Radio 4 yesterday had Vlad Lupan, former Moldavian Ambassador to the UN, speaking about this area. It was very informative. This was about 29 mins in.

There were other interesting discussions: the deputy president of Ukraine about the Avostal plant in Mariupol, Easter in Ukraine, and the shortage of HRT.

The World Tonight - 22/04/2022 - BBC Sounds

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0016hj9

Natsku · 23/04/2022 09:28

ScrollingLeaves · 22/04/2022 21:50

@Hillsmakeyoustrong · 22/04/2022 21:18

@RedToothBrush thanks for your post about russian military communication. I think im (far too slowly) realising that whilst weapon warfare hurts the body, information warfare hurts the mind. This war has been a real eye opener for me on the significance of information warfare..

This is so true. ‘Far too slowly realising’ echoes my thoughts exactly. It is running through our society too. We should be taught to spot it in school.

The UK could learn from Finland in this, recognising disinformation, misinformation, and malinformation has been part of the curriculum in Finnish schools for a few years now, developed in response to Russia really upping its information war game in 2014 - my 11 year old has her first exam on it next week

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2022 09:31

Tim White AT TWMCltd

RedToothBrush · 23/04/2022 09:32

1/2
Now I'm sure you're all waiting for the latest instalment of Russia's "disasters" after 2 huge fires and the collapse of a dam in the last couple of days.

Well today I bring you news of something that seems totally unconnected with the war, or sabotage (probably)

2/2
Three people have died in #Orenburg after an explosion in a mine. State authorities say safety regulations being "violated" plus inaccurate data from gas meters were the cause.

However just 3 days ago in Orenburg anti-terrorist "drills" at a fuel and energy complex

Igotjelly · 23/04/2022 09:33

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 09:23

@Igotjelly I don't think that warning about a post that might show eg a child's corpse (as per earlier) is sanitising. We are discussing everything on here and are very well versed in the crimes against humanity going on. I wouldn't say the people on this thread are unaware or trying to avoid seeing the horror of what's happening at all, quite the opposite. If we're going to see an image like that, though, we should have a choice in clicking to view it. Somebody made a good point earlier too about a fine line between showing atrocities for awareness and disrespectful gawping about the corpses of specific civilians. All I'm saying is we should avoid a shocking comment that doesn't reveal what it's about with a link attached to it

No I agree a short explanation or warning doesn’t go amiss. Wasn’t meaning to offend anyone sorry.

Reports that evacuations from Mariupol to go ahead today, with children and the elderly and women being prioritised. Really hope hey manage to get a good number out.

Alexandra2001 · 23/04/2022 09:34

Igotjelly · 23/04/2022 09:16

Whilst I agree that a trigger warning or something might be helpful it needs to be remembered that this is a thread about war, in particular a war that’s now notorious for its crimes against humanity. There is no sanitising that and it does a disservice to the brave Ukrainian people trying to get their message out there if we attempt to.

Personally i do not see the point of gratuitous images on twitter, the much longer well written pieces written by journalists bring home the realities far better, one can get the message out there without showing people in bits e.g the pictures of people laughing and enjoying life (pre war), followed by an article on what happened to them...

This is also an "after the post" moderated site, with no censorship to access.

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 09:35

Not offended, I take your point @Igotjelly :-)

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ScrollingLeaves · 23/04/2022 09:47

@cloudberry · 23/04/2022 09:06

Warning. Re: the video you posted showing the women and children in the Avostal plant

twitter.com/canadianukrain1/status/1517741197611220992?s=21&t=x-y6GpDWNr3R7wBZXmB9sA

I have no words …

The Ukrainian people must have quite extraordinary inner resources to have kept the children so looked after and calm in spite of these harrowing conditions. It is absolutely humbling.

If only the UN could intervene and get them out.

WeAreTheHeroes · 23/04/2022 09:50

I suspect that is partly why the UN Secretary General is meeting Putin next week.

ScrollingLeaves · 23/04/2022 09:59

*@Natsku · 23/04/2022 09:28

ScrollingLeaves
@Hillsmakeyoustrong · 22/04/2022 21:18

@RedToothBrush thanks for your post about russian military communication. I think im (far too slowly) realising that whilst weapon warfare hurts the body, information warfare hurts the mind. This war has been a real eye opener for me on the significance of information warfare..

“This is so true. ‘Far too slowly realising’ echoes my thoughts exactly. It is running through our society too. We should be taught to spot it in school.”

@Natsku answered:

The UK could learn from Finland in this, recognising disinformation, misinformation, and malinformation has been part of the curriculum in Finnish schools for a few years now, developed in response to Russia really upping its information war game in 2014 - my 11 year old has her first exam on it next week

They absolutely could. How wise of Finland to have this teaching. Democracy doesn’t exist if you don’t know when you are being led by the nose.

Natsku · 23/04/2022 10:04

Its one, quite important, layer of civil defence, where everyone can and should play their part.

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 10:07

New thread now we're in the 90s and before we lose each other: Ukraine Invasion: Part 22 www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4535988-ukraine-invasion-part-22

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RedToothBrush · 23/04/2022 10:27

The UK could learn from Finland in this, recognising disinformation, misinformation, and malinformation has been part of the curriculum in Finnish schools for a few years now, developed in response to Russia really upping its information war game in 2014 - my 11 year old has her first exam on it next week

Once upon a time (around the 1990s) there was a popular subject called 'media studies'.

Then it was declared by various politicians to be a 'mickey mouse' subject. Then schools started to drop the subject and parents discouraged their kids from doing it.

I hate them for this. The damage it did was far more widespread than people realise.

MagicFox · 23/04/2022 10:33

@RedToothBrush wholly agree re media studies. However, recently there's been a lot of focus in higher education on developing media studies courses because it recruits international students. We may well see a revival

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Ijsbear · 23/04/2022 11:03

mids2019 · 22/04/2022 20:00

What are your thoughts on the media coverage generally on this war?

I as split about the means to communicate any Russian 'sucess'.

a) News should be impartial and as full as possible so we should see any Russian victory and gain some knowledge of any Ukrainian casualties.

b) We are allies to Ukraine and our media should refrain from highlighting any Russian success as it could act to reduce Ukranian morale and give Russia information about Ukrainian weaknesses. We do not want to be inadvertently part of any Russian propaganda exercise in addition.

what are your thoughts?

Mids Ive been thinking a lot about this question of yours.

tldr: news should be The Varnished Truth.

a) News should be impartial and as full as possible so we should see any Russian victory and gain some knowledge of any Ukrainian casualties

On the surface this seems the best. Don't treat your population like children. Don't hide the shit. But ... that doesn't take into account human nature. Morale in war is very important. Especially in a democracy the more people are unhappy/discouraged, the more there will be a desire to disengage and being a democracy and with an eye on re-election, the politicians will be influenced. They have to be, or it's no longer a democracy.

But as a mass we can be affected by bad news and by good. The will to carry on might waver if there is bad news, to the point of people saying "well we shouldnt pour more materials and effort into a lost cause". Yet if those materials and efforts can help the, let's say, Serrenland's (made up name!) army through a rough time then it's worth persevering, and a temporary loss can be overcome and things go better. Or the losses might mount and the Serrenlanders fail. Or the resources sent could allow thousands of people to be evacuated to safety, so even though the war is lost a great deal was gained. That becomes clear in hindsight though, whether or not it was worth keeping going. But making a decision to withdraw based wholly on the mass mood when something is going wrong is a bad idea.

It's clear even from these threads how terrified people are by the very idea of nuclear explosions. That degree of terror is not reasonable. Understandable, but not reasonable (anxiety is a bitch). Any nuclear attacks are not going to be the first recourse; there are extremely skilled people working to make sure it doesn't happen, and one nuclear device going off is not the same as the end of the world. But people are scared and in the end Putin is using that fear and it's working.

So clear heads need to decide. Feelings are great motivators but not always sensible or wise; they need to be governed by thought.

Another factor is that people in charge have much more info than most people in the country do. Not all that info can be shared for obvious reasons, you don't tell the enemy about the best weopons you have or your strategic plans.

Some information can be literally true but on its own present a partial or wrong picture. The old adage of the blind men and the elephant's tail and trunk and feet applies.

So I don't think that the full truth is a good idea.

But.

b) We are allies to Ukraine and our media should refrain from highlighting any Russian success as it could act to reduce Ukranian morale and give Russia information about Ukrainian weaknesses. We do not want to be inadvertently part of any Russian propaganda exercise in addition.

Just cannot go along with this. We are not, as a country, very wise or steady. But I don't think we should be fed happypap either. The amount of information provision has risen hugely in the last decades and, thank god, independent information provision at that. But the level of mass analytical thinking eg at university has gone down compared to 40 years ago (at least so my older university teacher-friends tell me). (Damn you, Murdoch, you evil man). But it doesn't mean we should just go along with feeding only good news, however much easier that is to hear emotionally. The govt should at least try to treat us as people who can and are able to take in some bad info. I regard the role of a govt as being to govern but also to try to raise standards, not allow them to sink to the lowest emotion-driven level. Of course that's a bit hard with Bojo in charge ... }

So the news needs to be a balance between the hard truth and happypap. But for me, the balance needs to be rather more on the side of truth than propaganda.

There are many many more factors you could add in here but it's already way too long a post =) (also ive got a headache, sorry if it's a bit of a messy post)

But to sum up again

TLDR - the Varnished Truth.

borntobequiet · 23/04/2022 11:54

I (as a sixth form tutor) had a number of bright students who wanted to do Media Studies at university and I encouraged them. Their parents, however, were not happy and wanted them to do Eng Lit as being more prestigious. Happily most eventually did the course they themselves wanted.

herecomesthsun · 23/04/2022 11:59

English Lit does also teach critical thinking.

borntobequiet · 23/04/2022 12:28

herecomesthsun · 23/04/2022 11:59

English Lit does also teach critical thinking.

I didn’t say it doesn’t. Media has a much wider brief.

herecomesthsun · 23/04/2022 13:17

I think there is a good argument for teaching media studies - especially critical evaluation of political issues- to primary and secondary school children.

My secondary school age child has citizenship lessons, and they do cover some of these issues there.

I did an English degree and was taught to critically evaluate the use of language and to look for subtexts etc. We often criticised texts in terms of the political or historical perspective.

Other degrees, such as politics and history, would give a solid understanding of what lies behind many situations in UK politics, and elsewhere.

Media studies as such might throw clarity on the thinking behind news reports on the situation in Ukraine, but I wonder whether a degree in it might involve more time exploring the phenomenon of Love Island or Top of the Pops? A bit more ephemeral maybe?

I'd be quite interested to know if that is unfair, by the way.

Natsku · 23/04/2022 15:08

Media studies was popular when I was in 6th form (also critical thinking, as a standalone subject), probably at the tail end of its popularity as I remember talk of it being the doss subject. But really does need to be taught, earlier and to everyone.

borntobequiet · 24/04/2022 08:22

Natsku · 23/04/2022 15:08

Media studies was popular when I was in 6th form (also critical thinking, as a standalone subject), probably at the tail end of its popularity as I remember talk of it being the doss subject. But really does need to be taught, earlier and to everyone.

I was asked to teach Critical Thinking, to be offered as an alternative to General Studies in sixth form, really for more academically able students, though I opened it to anyone with imagination, curiosity and the ability to string a sentence together. All our discussion topics were straight out of current affairs and included difficult and demanding issues - it was during the war in Iraq so there were plenty of those. It was one of the most satisfying experiences of my teaching career. One thing I discovered was that the more academically able weren’t necessarily the better critical thinkers.

RedToothBrush · 24/04/2022 09:22

Re comments above about the truth, the history book which was pretty much my bible on American history for a level and beyond (it was essentially about the development of modern Liberal Democracy) was actually called something like 'The limits of liberty'. Its an ongoing theme and has been central to what I studied.

In other words no i dont believe its possible nor preferable to always be entirely trueful. The vanished truth is a concept I recognise and sums up well.

My degree was essentially media, politics and history. I didn't actually ever study politics though. There's a massive cross over. A huge part of the course had discussions on ethics. It also covered points about the power of censors. The phrase my lecturer always used to make was 'who censors the censors?'. It was basically about how do you moderate the power of censors and what happens if the censors have very different views about morality to you or from the population at large? Basically it stressed that the power of censorship tended to harm the most vulnerable and less representative and least powerful groups most. Ironically, I believe we are seeing this play out in real time now - and for the most part I have what others might thinkbisva very 'Tory' view on this (its not Tory. Its a reflection on how Tory policy on censorship is currently the most liberal of any of the major parties by some significant distance with the others all being very authoritarian. Its one of the few policies I think they aren't doing too bad with in comparative terms. Though they certainly are not right with all of it either. It frustates me that liberal democratic principles are being touted as conservative and extreme right wing. It highlights how far removed certain parties have become from founding principles... )

Whether 'citizenship' as a subject is the right umbrella I don't know, but you certainly can put principles of democracy, media and history into the same basket for the really important lifeskills element of this.

The fact we aren't valuing this, makes me wonder about how much all the parties are really committed to democratic principles and free speech generally.

My old lecturer would turn in his grave I suspect.

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