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Ukraine Invasion: Part 21

1003 replies

MagicFox · 16/04/2022 21:01

Another thread, thank you to all

OP posts:
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ShinyHat22 · 22/04/2022 13:37

@Igotjelly as far as I know, this is the first time that Boris J has come out and publicly acknowledged that there is a realistic chance Russia could win - am I right? Seems a lot of subtle references to a sort of uncomfortable acceptance of things outside of the Donbass area today - the WizzAir tickets, the British Embassy re-opening etc.

HappyWinter · 22/04/2022 13:40

It's hard to know how many people are thinking about Ukraine, I don't talk about it much in real life, apart from with DH. Other people could be the same, as it's hard to talk about difficult subjects and not everyone wants to. Does anyone find the same? Same with other subjects like politics and climate change, I'm trying to reduce energy consumption (esp since Ukraine and price rises), food waste and consumption in general and I don't talk about it in real life.

BBC News story about a woman who drove into Mariupol to rescue her parents and managed to escape and save several others, it's amazing that she managed to get out again.

Mariupol: Driving into the 'apocalypse' to save mum and dad
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61178199

blueshoes · 22/04/2022 13:41

Alexandra2001: I hope that one day, Putin & his Generals will suffer the same end as Gadhafi , ripped apart by a mob.

I assume this is one of Putin's greatest fears, along with the fate of Saddam Husseim, filmed being pulled from a hole in the ground where he was hiding, blinking into the light, and later executed by hanging.

If you live by the sword ...

ScrollingLeaves · 22/04/2022 13:45

@HappyWinter

BBC News story about a woman who drove into Mariupol to rescue her parents and managed to escape and save several others, it's amazing that she managed to get out again.

Mariupol: Driving into the 'apocalypse' to save mum and dad
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61178199

Thank you very much, I have just read that.
How brave and admirable she is. It is wonderful she got them out. Now I hope they will be safe where they are.

Ijsbear · 22/04/2022 13:56

shreddednips · 22/04/2022 12:55

@Ijsbear

Oh I remember Andropov and Chernenko yeah. Bit likethe Year of Four Emperors wasn't it.

Still wondering who would take over after Mr KGB. Lavrov? Shoigu? A dark horse?

AFAIK, Shoigu is (or at least was) very popular with the public so my money would have been on him at the start of the invasion, perhaps less likely now (especially with his 'heart problems'). I think Putin endorsed Medvedev as his successor a long while back, but he would have been more of a puppet leader to allow Putin to rule by proxy. Not sure if Medvedev would take over the reins if Putin actually kicked the bucket.

Can't imagine Shoigu is much better than Mr Soulless :/

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 14:05

Visa update on family I know who are trying sponsor a family who didn't have passports and were from a heavily bombed area in North Eastern Ukraine and at one point were waiting for a humanitarian corridor to open before they could get out before the Russians withdrew .

They started the process a month ago.

They're now Warsaw STILL trying to get their biometrics sorted. They've had the council around, had all sorts of hoops to jump through at this end because they are taking on a young family. MP involved multiple times. No idea when it will eventually get resolved.

This is a massive contrast to the other family I'm aware of, who have passports, and have been approved in less than 5 days on a bank holiday week with no input from the council whatsoever despite having a 14 year old. (Yes its the same council).

Igotjelly · 22/04/2022 14:07

Ijsbear · 22/04/2022 13:56

Can't imagine Shoigu is much better than Mr Soulless :/

We mustn’t forget that whatever comes after Putin is very unlikely to be a magic fix no matter who they are. Mistrust of the West runs deep in Russia, and many other places, and not entirely without reason.

Culturally the west and Russia are diametrically opposed and that wouldn’t change with the death of one man. I believe that, at best, we could hope at some point for genuinely peaceful coexistence. It could take generations of increased integration to break down the walls of mistrust and dare I say hatred on both sides of the aisle.

shreddednips · 22/04/2022 14:10

@blueshoes

Alexandra2001: I hope that one day, Putin & his Generals will suffer the same end as Gadhafi , ripped apart by a mob.

I assume this is one of Putin's greatest fears, along with the fate of Saddam Husseim, filmed being pulled from a hole in the ground where he was hiding, blinking into the light, and later executed by hanging.

If you live by the sword ...

I read an analysis a while back that stated one of Putin's greatest fears is succumbing to the same fate as Gadaffi. He was very distressed by it, apparently.
RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 14:20

minsmum · 22/04/2022 12:50

Someone on Times radio said that they think some really bad news is coming from Ukraine and that is why Boris Johnson said it. In reality they don't know anymore than we do.

I doubt that. But I also think that theres a finite limit to how long the west are prepared to keep this up for too. Its not just Russia who are in effect time limited.

Plus 9th May. Very possible that everyone sees this as a very significant date, and are trying to sooth Putin, one way or another until it passes now.

I think there's a fear about Putin and the crazy element still and the NATO psychologicalists are getting worried about it (uptick in comments about how he will react).

Ukraine has to be able to hold the line now without taking too many causalities.

There is a hint now that Ukraine is taking more causalities than they are letting on this week and its been very tough to hold.

We will see. I don't think we are being prepared for bad news in the sense, that something significant on the battlefield has happened that we don't know about yet.

If anything people have got carried away with the idea that Ukraine are going to beat Russia back to the border though and public expectations are out of line with likely outcomes. Saying Russia could still win could simply be more about British public expectation management than anything to do with Russia tbh.

Ijsbear · 22/04/2022 14:24

It could take generations of increased integration to break down the walls of mistrust and dare I say hatred on both sides of the aisle.

yes, agreed. Democracy, the ability of each person to make their voice genuinely heard (as opposed to a mockery of democracy), seems a non-starter in Russia. The roots of it proved very shallow and the encouragement of such corruption is going to take forever to root out - if there is a will to root it out at all. Like the rest of the world, money seems to be sucked up into the hands of a few individuals. It's basically nobility/peasantry coming back again with the addition of a middle-class layer. Just different names for it.

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 14:31

And there's a big issue:
Andrew Desiderio AT andrewdesiderio
NEW: Biden will ask Congress for more Ukraine aid next week, but it won’t be easy to get it to his desk. Here’s why.

No question Ukraine aid would pass overwhelmingly as a standalone. But Schumer has indicated he wants to pair it w/ Covid aid, which was sidelined before the recess when R’s demanded votes on Title 42. With Dem pressure on Title 42 only growing, this puts Schumer in a tough spot.

All three of these issues (Ukraine $$$, Covid aid, Title 42) could soon collide.

Will Dems tell Schumer to decouple Ukraine & Covid?

Sen. Shaheen (D-N.H.): “I support [Covid aid]...but I also think it’s very important to get this aid out to Ukraine as quickly as possible.”

DuncinToffee · 22/04/2022 14:36

Diddums

Kevin Rothrock
A Russian soldier from Krasnodar reportedly lost his phone while fighting & being wounded in Ukraine. Somebody found it, turned it on, found his bank account app, and apparently transferred away his life savings (2.5 million rubles). His wife has appealed to the local police.

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 14:42

Tim Mak AT TimMak
A cafe owner in Odesa told Brian that he's lost 70 percent of his business.

He thinks Ukraine's GDP will cut in half by the end of the year; this PLUS enormous inflation for basic goods create enormous challenges for civilians even hundreds of miles away from the frontlines.

I've heard that life is getting tough, even for those in Western Ukraine for this reason.

Natsku · 22/04/2022 14:53

Really impressed with how much aid Estonia has given, considering its size. Though worth bearing in mind this is only officially declared aid, countries will also be sending less official aid which isn't counted

Ukraine Invasion: Part 21
RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 14:55

Yaroslav Trofimov AT yarotrof

Day by day, Kharkiv — Ukraine’s second largest city — is being wiped off the face of the earth by relentless Russian shelling. My report from the post-apocalyptic wasteland where survivors cut down trees to cook on open fires amid destroyed high-rises.
Wall street Journal - Surviving in Kharkiv

Ms. Yevtukhova, 63, who lives with her son Pasha and their cat Motik, hasn’t had electricity or running water since her nine-story housing block in Kharkiv’s North Saltivka neighborhood was first hit by Russian artillery on March 3. They are alive because a shell went right through her apartment and came out on the other side, without exploding.

“Luckily there is a stream nearby, and we can fetch some water,” she said as a neighbor hacked down a tree branch for firewood. “We are a family, all three of us taking care of each other.”

And

“Usually, it seems empty, like nobody lives here,” Ms. Yevtukhova said. “But when volunteers arrive with food, people come out of their hiding everywhere.”

And

“The geographical area of the shelling and the intensity of it are increasing. The objective of the Russian aggressor is to sow panic and create a collapse,” Mr. Terekhov said Friday. “The Russian aggressor is not ceasing attempts to attack Kharkiv and it’s not being successful only because our military is managing to repel these efforts.”

And

“At first, there was total panic. But by now, people understand better when it’s incoming shelling, when it’s outgoing, and when they need to run for cover. People are organizing themselves to survive this,” said Kseniya Tumanovska, executive director of the Dobra Volya, an aid group that helps distribute food donations.

Municipal services continue to operate, with street sweepers cleaning the roads even as shells hiss overhead. The mayor, Mr. Terekhov, has said flowers would be planted again on the main squares. Firefighters keep showing up in the most dangerous areas to douse fires despite the Russian strategy of double-tapping strike sites to hit rescue crews.

And

“We get shelled every single bloody day. We don’t replace windows anymore, just put up some plastic sheets. What is the point of glass windows if you know they will get shattered within a day or two?” said Vlad Pokutnev, who lives in the next building and helps feed some 30 mostly elderly residents hiding in the high-rise’s basement.

Down the road, two paramedics and a bystander, Maksym, who narrowly escaped being hit by shrapnel himself, were carefully extracting the carbonized remains of a man and a woman incinerated when a Grad rocket hit their hatchback car. Their remains fell apart when the paramedics tried to pry them out.

“The skull, don’t forget the skull,” Maksym, wearing two pairs of latex gloves, told the paramedics in bright-red overalls and body armor. He then picked up two other body parts, impossible to identify, and carefully deposited them on the ground.

And

The Ukrainian army chaplain bringing food to Ms. Yevtukhova’s block in North Saltivka, Vladyslav, said that he had convinced 46 residents to leave for safer parts of Ukraine, but many others have refused.

“Sometimes I go to the basement, sometimes I stay in my place. I am scared, of course, but what can we do?” said one of the holdouts, Yuriy Kinshakov, a 53-year-old engineer. “Some people from the building are gone, to Poland, to western Ukraine. Others have nowhere to go. But it’s not just a question of money: We don’t want to abandon our country.”

And

Andriy Ocheredko, a sociologist who used to run a polling company in Kharkiv before the February invasion, poured his own savings into a venture to feed North Saltivka’s residents. He filled a warehouse with oranges, pomegranates, potatoes, eggplants and onions and installed a small bakery, with a dough kneader and an oven.

His own office around the corner was remade into a large kitchen, with a dishwasher and a stove where volunteers make hearty lunches that are served every afternoon to some 600 people in the safety of a nearby subway station.

On Tuesday night, Russian rockets destroyed the warehouse, the bakery and refrigerators full of milk for the neighborhood’s children just as Mr. Ocheredko received supplies to bake Orthodox Easter cakes. “I’m lucky I didn’t stay here overnight,” he said as he showed the warehouse, which was still smoldering two days later. “I was in shock. All I kept thinking was: What will I cook with? There are so many people who have nothing else to eat.”^

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 14:58

Natsku · 22/04/2022 14:53

Really impressed with how much aid Estonia has given, considering its size. Though worth bearing in mind this is only officially declared aid, countries will also be sending less official aid which isn't counted

I think the theory is that military aid is worth more to your defence if its used against your enemy rather than if it is sat in your watehouses, in need of proper Trent Telenko love.

If your enemy is busy, then you don't need as much sitting in a warehouse either.

Estonia's stance reflects how much of a threat they feel Russia is, and how its better to do it this way (and not with the lives of your own citizens).

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 15:03

Samuel Ramani AT Samuelramani2
BREAKING: Britain says it could ship tanks to Poland so Poland can move T-72 tanks to Ukraine

Boris Johnson: “We are looking at sending tanks to Poland to help them as they send some of their T-72s tanks to Ukraine”

PippinStar · 22/04/2022 15:04

RedToothBrush · 22/04/2022 14:20

I doubt that. But I also think that theres a finite limit to how long the west are prepared to keep this up for too. Its not just Russia who are in effect time limited.

Plus 9th May. Very possible that everyone sees this as a very significant date, and are trying to sooth Putin, one way or another until it passes now.

I think there's a fear about Putin and the crazy element still and the NATO psychologicalists are getting worried about it (uptick in comments about how he will react).

Ukraine has to be able to hold the line now without taking too many causalities.

There is a hint now that Ukraine is taking more causalities than they are letting on this week and its been very tough to hold.

We will see. I don't think we are being prepared for bad news in the sense, that something significant on the battlefield has happened that we don't know about yet.

If anything people have got carried away with the idea that Ukraine are going to beat Russia back to the border though and public expectations are out of line with likely outcomes. Saying Russia could still win could simply be more about British public expectation management than anything to do with Russia tbh.

Putin is definitely going to unravel more as time goes on, especially if Ukraine is still holding out. I just hope the West stand very, very firm this time. It’s the only way to deal with him. I hope they have better psychologists advising them than they did in the early days.

CPL593H · 22/04/2022 15:06

Today is Good Friday in Orthodoxy. It will be interesting to see if Putin breaks cover this weekend to attend services or gives a televised address.

Igotjelly · 22/04/2022 15:37

Sever ‘long conversations’ held today between Russia and Ukraine. Please god let them agree to something that will save the poor civilians in Mariupol.

ScrollingLeaves · 22/04/2022 15:42

@RedToothbrush

Thank you for the account from Kharkiv you posted 14:55

In the section below it is particularly heart rending to realise the contrast between the lovely fruits of the earth described that he had managed to gather to feed people with - the pomegranates, oranges, onions, and egg plants - and the milk for the children, and the oven and the bread, and the planned Orthidox Easter Cakes - and the barren barbaric laying waste that has been carried out meaning his efforts are destroyed.

Andriy Ocheredko, a sociologist who used to run a polling company in Kharkiv before the February invasion, poured his own savings into a venture to feed North Saltivka’s residents. He filled a warehouse with oranges, pomegranates, potatoes, eggplants and onions and installed a small bakery, with a dough kneader and an oven.

His own office around the corner was remade into a large kitchen, with a dishwasher and a stove where volunteers make hearty lunches that are served every afternoon to some 600 people in the safety of a nearby subway station.

On Tuesday night, Russian rockets destroyed the warehouse, the bakery and refrigerators full of milk for the neighborhood’s children just as Mr. Ocheredko received supplies to bake Orthodox Easter cakes. “I’m lucky I didn’t stay here overnight,” he said as he showed the warehouse, which was still smoldering two days later. “I was in shock. All I kept thinking was: What will I cook with? There are so many people who have nothing else to ea<em style="background-color: rgba(255,255,255,var(tw-bg-opacity)); color: rgba(31,41,55,var(tw-text-opacity));">t.”

EsmaCannonball · 22/04/2022 16:16

Another big fire involving Russian military infrastructure today, this time in Korolyov. It's at a mechanical engineering institute linked to Roskosmos and weapons research. What a terrible run of bad luck they are having.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 22/04/2022 16:16

I along with another mumsnetter on this thread are supporting a group in Kharkiv and get almost daily reports from the group leader. His team comprises of his lifelong friends and their partners. They are incredibly positive, strong people. He rises early (having spent the night on a mattress in a basement) usually under fire, and then does a full day of delivering food and fuel and mending cars. Again under fire. He feeds over 70 civilians and military every day. They are a total inspiration ❤️ and it's very humbling to be a part of their team.

ChitChatChatter · 22/04/2022 17:23

Alexandra2001 · 22/04/2022 07:39

@baroqueandblue You aren't wrong!

Look at this thread? basically the same few posters, no one seems interested.

I've just listened to an argument on why Germany isn't supplying tanks etc.. (though neither are we) basically, its the same one accepted on here for not supplying MiGs i.e not trained, take too long, no mtce crews or spares.

Though as with the MiG's we should get the ball rolling because we don't know long this war will go on.

atm Ukr is wanting anti tank ammo and artillery and masses of it.

I don’t post much on this thread because I don’t have the technical knowledge of some here or the research skills of others. That doesn’t mean I’m not interested, quite the contrary, I’m grateful for the varying views expressed here to help me try and understand what’s going on.

heldinadream · 22/04/2022 17:30

Sky news is reporting that the UN secretary general is going to Moscow on Tuesday to meet with Putin!

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