Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 20

997 replies

HappyWinter · 11/04/2022 21:30

Thanks to everyone for taking part in the thread.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
51
AthelstaneTheUnready · 15/04/2022 20:56

@prettybird

I'd love a coffee *@AthelstaneTheUnready* Smile Just let me know when and where.
Excellent. PM me your number and we'll pick a date.
blueshoes · 15/04/2022 21:03

@Ijsbear

The Vizar plant that makes Neptun's had it

twitter.com/UkrWarReport check 1 hour ago.

Sad

Wonder why Russia did not target it before.

DuncinToffee · 15/04/2022 21:15

NY Times
The bodies of at least 900 civilians who were killed by Russian forces as they withdrew from the Kyiv region have been discovered, a Ukrainian official said on Friday, amplifying the already mounting accusations that Russia has committed war crimes.

DuncinToffee · 15/04/2022 21:17

Euromaidan PR

Sad story of Moskva: 90% of the crew including and led by the captain Anton Kuprin went to the bottom.

RU losses in #RussiaUkraineWar as of Apr 15: 20K servicemen + 450 sailors.

Go home Russian from the territory of Ukraine, including occupied Crimea and seized Donbas!

Odesa · 15/04/2022 21:21

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Igotjelly · 15/04/2022 21:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

PerkingFaintly · 15/04/2022 21:30

The whole point of parading Aslin with a forced statement is to cause disruption and dissent. So let's not oblige the Russians by letting them make us bicker.

Brew and Cake all round.

It must be so unbelievably stressful having people you care about caught up in all this.Flowers

blueshoes · 15/04/2022 21:31

Sad story of Moskva: 90% of the crew including and led by the captain Anton Kuprin went to the bottom.

I guess not so sad if they were firing missiles at civilians. They must surely know what their targets were.

Absolutely right that Russia can make this stop right away. Just get the hell out of Ukraine occupied territory.

Odesa · 15/04/2022 21:32

@Igotjelly If there was ever a time and place to be rude then this is it. This is it.

Aiden Aslin has pretty much switched sides in his confessions to camera. I suspect he has had the precariousness of his situation made clear.

Switched sides? @MMBaranova what can you say to this man tonight who was prepared and still is to lay down his life for your family?

I have not even started to prime the fuses on the rest of his/her comments and links.

Raging.

RedToothBrush · 15/04/2022 21:36

@Ijsbear

Easy, Odesa. MMBaranova has relatives in an occupied zone and she's simply reporting what's happened. She is not questioning it. Simply saying what appears to have happened. She said herself that the precariousness of his position had probably been made clear.
Ive got to agree with this.

I also have to say that I don't blame MMBaranova for feeling like its a betrayal. The commanders of the 36th and Azov felt similarly, that those who surrendered were cowards and should not be treated as heroes.

There will be a feeling that soliders should just die for the cause. But thats not necessarily easy to do. I don't think it easy to surrender. I don't think its easy to fight to the death. And anyone who thinks they will just suck up torture and not crack, when its theoretical is just being ignorant.

I'm certainly not going to judge in those circumstances. None of us know what we would really do until confronted with it in reality.

I think we do need to put into context though. Phrasing it as having switched sides isn't right - not when you have put yourself on the line for that long though.

Impossible choices in impossible situations.

DuncinToffee · 15/04/2022 21:37

Are you missing the "in front of camera" bit Odesa?

Please report your concerns to MN

prettybird · 15/04/2022 21:38

Rather than derail (which is what bots try to do, although I'm not suggesting in this case that Odesa is a bot, as I had remembered that she'd said she'd named changed), let's just agree that we disagree l with the impression that MMBaranova (who also has a long posting history and is not at all sympathetic towards Putin and the Russian War in Ukraine Hmm) was portraying of her opinion of Aiden Aslin.

Alexandra2001 · 15/04/2022 21:40

Aiden Aslin has pretty much switched sides in his confessions to camera. I suspect he has had the precariousness of his situation made clear

Completely unnecessary to come out with that line.

He is doing what anyone should do in his situation and that is stay alive and be "useful" to the enemy, just as British POWs did in the Iraq war.
Judging by his injuries, he didn't just roll over either.

Extremely brave man and deserves better than back handed criticism

What does need highlighting is how disgusting the Russians are behaving ... on all levels.

Anyone who doubts this should listen to Letter from Ukraine on R4.

Ijsbear · 15/04/2022 21:46

fgs leave @MMBaranova alone. She's got fucking family in severe danger and in desperate need of medical attention they can't get.

Who here has managed to keep their neutrality and cool when under verbal aggression at work? this woman has family in dire need of medical aid and who can barely get through to them because the Russians have cut communications.

Aiden Aslin has had to bow his stiff neck but that has to hurt for some. Even the Ukranians who got through to the Azovians have been damn rude about the ones who surrendered because dear fuck, this is life and death. But I can't condemn those who surrendered.

Give her a break, and Odesa, save your rude words for the Russians.

RedToothBrush · 15/04/2022 21:48

I don't blame MMBaranova.

I also don't blame Aiden Aslin.

What I'm saying is I don't think 'changing sides' is a fair assessment.

Everyone knew this was likely to happen. Even this guy, who was honest about it, and preempted it by saying he didn't know how he would react.

You don't know if there is someone behind the camera with a gun to his friends' heads saying 'if you don't say this, Im going to kill everyone else one by one'. Or worse, a civilian.

Thats the problem.

Is he acting selfishly? Is he protecting someone?

Ultimately he is a man who made a choice to fight for his adoptive country. He's seen many of his fellow soliders die in the last six weeks or so. Saying he also should fight to the death or be prepared to die at this point is fucking pointless shit.

Alexandra2001 · 15/04/2022 21:56

@Ijsbear People on here are expected to have an opinion and express it, others can agree or disagree, thats how a forum works.

Everything we are hearing about this guy is staged now BUT what we do know he is alive and has fought v bravely, we also don't know the circumstances of his capture.

But i hope and pray he gets out of this alive and he isn't going to do that by not cooperating with his captors, its not a question of "bravely fighting to the death" he has to survive! his death achieves nothing now.

RedToothBrush · 15/04/2022 21:58

Anyway moving on.

Back to the G word.

Julia Davis @juliadavisnews
More genocidal talk on Russian state TV: pundit agrees that Putin's goal is to erase the very idea of being a Ukrainian. He finds even the name, "Ukrainians," to be an insult and sees no reason for that entire nation or nationality to exist outside of "Russian" identity.

Eugene Finkel @eugene_finkel
Also quotes Victoria Nuland's claim that Putin commits a genocide and agrees. Openly, nonchalantly, happily even. Usually the hardest part in determining genocide is proving intent. I am sure they know how easy they are making this for us now. They just don't give a damn

Dear journalists and WH watchers, a question for you. Do we have any idea what prompted Biden to use the term genocide just days after Sullivan resisted it? Was there some internal debate? Or maybe new info? Or it just felt right? Because rhetorically this is a big shift

In the replies:

Decoding Trolls @decodingtrolls
Biden has led the hybrid war counter attack strategy, since Nov 2021. When UN lawyers determine Russia's genocide against Ukrainians IS genocide, parties to Genocide Convention MUST, by law, act to prevent it. Biden in lock step with Zelenskky is ratcheting up pressure. On Germany , France & India.

Why is Macron "cautious" about naming Russia's war to "de-nationalise" Ukraine "Genocide"? Because once it's called "Genocide" in law, France, Britain, Germany, India & China MUST by law intervene to stop it. 70 years after WWII, USA is STILL the indispensable power. 🙏🏾@POTUS

Why is Macron being so 'cautious'?

Is it because of the election next week (in which case if he wins will we see a change in his tone?) or is he like the Germans just desparate not to get involved full stop? Or is he just in cloud cuckoo and thinks Putin isnt so bad or was provoked in some way?

It is a political question for this reason.

There is no one reasonably expecting that China will intervene (for obvious reasons) but the others, yes its an issue.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 20
Ijsbear · 15/04/2022 21:59

Ultimately he is a man who made a choice to fight for his adoptive country. He's seen many of his fellow soliders die in the last six weeks or so. Saying he also should fight to the death or be prepared to die at this point is fucking pointless shit.

This.

Alexandra2001 · 15/04/2022 22:00

On the Neptune missile strike, i don't think it was a case of Russia choosing Civilian over Military targets, more a case of that they didn't even consider it!
Their ineptitude is quite obvious.

However the Ukrainians aren't stupid, its possible they had no missiles stored there and even another assembly area.

prettybird · 15/04/2022 22:01

@PerkingFaintly said it so much better than me Thanks

Ijsbear · 15/04/2022 22:05

@Alexandra2001

On the Neptune missile strike, i don't think it was a case of Russia choosing Civilian over Military targets, more a case of that they didn't even consider it! Their ineptitude is quite obvious.

However the Ukrainians aren't stupid, its possible they had no missiles stored there and even another assembly area.

But it does mean they can't make any more on their own ground and it was clear that most people think the Ukrainians were making their own.
RedToothBrush · 15/04/2022 22:10

A wreath to the men who were safely evacuated from the Moskva:

Translated tweets

Liza Fokht @lizafokht
excuse me, but I understand correctly that for more than a day we have not known anything for certain about how many sailors were on the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet when it caught fire, and was there anyone on it when the cruiser sank?

I will clarify: the Ministry of Defense on Thursday night reported that the crew was "completely evacuated." last night, when it was confirmed that the cruiser had sunk, they said "the crew of the cruiser was evacuated to the ships of the Black Sea Fleet in the area" (already without it completely). but how many people?

Today in Sevastopol there was a ceremony of farewell to the cruiser. on the mourning ribbon it says "to the ship and sailors"

sevastopol.su/news/moskva-eto-chast-zhizni-v-sevastopole-prostilis-s-legendarnym-flagmanom

Andrew Roth @andrew_roth
Still no official report of how many died aboard the Moskva cruiser. No photographs of the ship or the 510 member crew, more than 24 hours after they were supposedly rescued. Just a wreath at a memorial in Sevastopol to the “ship and sailors.”

Ukraine Invasion: Part 20
Odesa · 15/04/2022 22:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

RedToothBrush · 15/04/2022 22:31

Mark Hertling @markhertling
Just now, @jaketapper on @ccn asked me about the strategic & operational importance of the Moskva sinking.

In my view, this is a very big deal for a variety of reasons.

Here's a new thread 1/14

First, many are still asking "was this a ship board accident (fire), or was this really a Neptune strike?"

DoD indicates the latter.

Having said that, this was MORE than a simple matter of a couple of missiles hitting a ship that was a great distance away. 2/

There will be an after-action review (AAR) on this strike, and someday we will learn what went into it.

But anytime a military unit conducts a strike as complex as this, there is MUCH more than just launching a couple of missiles that surround the event.

Let's leave it there.3/

[rtb: intelligence and planning?]

But I would say that it is open-source reporting that Ukraine has had this ground-to-ship missile in experimentation for about 5 years.

Now I'm not a sailor, but it seems the Russians sure didn't incorporate that info into their naval maneuver planning.

Shame on them. 4/

Back to the question: Will this sinking be strategically important?

I'd say, emphatically: Yes, for a variety of reason!

First, this the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet. But this ship was also the flagship during the 2008 invasion in Georgia, and it's named for MOSCOW! 5/

This ship was tasked to provide overall Fleet C2 (command and control), Air Defense (it is filled with different ADA systems), and it would have discharged Naval Infantry (Marines) during a planned amphib assault on the shores near Odesa. 6/

As Putin revised his plan for "eastern & southern attacks" after failing to take Kyiv, the seizure of the Black Sea coast (& perhaps the continued attack toward Transnistria in Moldova) was likely part of the "new" plan.

It will be hard to execute that western assault now. 7/

But there's more...

Russia/Putin should NOT take this sinking as a singular event.

Let's add the Moskva sinking to other failures: 8/

-The destruction of the Russian Parachute Regiment (the famed "palace guard" VDV/Spetznaz) north of Kyiv during the first week of the war.
-The loss of at least 7 generals & an unlimited number of Colonel Commanders of key Combined Arms Armies and Tank/Motorized Rifle Units. 9/

-The increasing number of Russian soldiers (mostly conscripts) killed in action (Ukraines count is now 20,000...and that's likely conservative).
-The destruction of over 700 tanks and literally hundreds of other armored vehicles during the first 50 days 10/

-The inability of the Russian Air Force to provide close air support to Russian ground troops or deep strikes against Ukrainian forces due to fear of UA air defense
-Russians communicating using unencrypted devices that leads to intelligence leaks 11/

-Ukraine Army helicopters conducting a cross-border operations into Belgorod to destroy multiple fuel tanks
-UA special operations striking behind Russian lines against key logistics targets.
-RU failure to resupply/medically evacuate their troops 12/

Again, the strike against the Moskva was a big deal.

But combining it with other the Russian military failures, it should be difficult for Putin to explain to his citizens.

The advantages of being an authoritarian w/ a friendly RT news channel. 13/

I've learned never to underestimate my enemies, but it's going to be VERY hard for Russian General Dvornikov to turn this around. 14/14

Going back to this:

Putin can't hide the sinking of the Moskva. It apparently happened in the early hours and this was confirmed independently by Romania and Turkey.

Yesterday, they tried for some time to suggest it hadn't sunk and had tried to tow it back to port.

But ultimately they knew they couldn't hide it, so admitted it had sunk.

The official line is now that they safely evacuated the ship, following an onboard munitions accident and the ship then sank in stormy weather.

Yet Russian state tv didn't believe this and had pundits referring to an attack by Ukraine which merited a retaliation. Its an open admission that they do not believe the official line. Its not subtle. It was a direct question. It was a direct challenge to Putin.

It asks "well what the fuck is your response to this significant Ukrainian attack? How do we retaliate?"

This begs a response from Putin.

He can't say the Special military operation is going well. Cos everyone knows this isn't supposed to happen.

The facade of Putin as a great military strong man is shattered. Putin has to prove himself.

Yet how?

He cannot commit more, when it does not exist.

Such open challenges to his leadership, may seem trivial but they will sting and give cause for concern.

Putin now has to demonstrate to the pundits. If he now cannot deliver the red meat they desire, there's a issue.

Putin must now invent a pretext to switch from a military operation to a war. He has no choice. He is into 'unforced' errors.

Ijsbear · 15/04/2022 22:38

Putin now has to demonstrate to the pundits. If he now cannot deliver the red meat they desire, there's a issue.

yes.

The more he's forced to deal with a situation that's overtly out of his control though, the more irrational his responses will be though.