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Ukraine Invasion: Part 20

997 replies

HappyWinter · 11/04/2022 21:30

Thanks to everyone for taking part in the thread.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
51
ShinyHat22 · 14/04/2022 11:07

That Putin “Blueberry Hill” video is the most bizarre thing I have seen in a while!

WeAreTheHeroes · 14/04/2022 11:10

According to the FT, Phi is owned by Kochetkov who owns Motiv Telecom.

A couple of weeks ago on Breakfast I saw an English-speaking Ukrainian woman say she wanted to come to the UK as she thought her chances of getting a decent job here were stronger than in Poland, where the majority of Ukrainian refugees are.

Let's not forget that fleeing your home under threat of war with what you can carry is traumatic. The Russians have shown they can strike targets pretty much anywhere in Ukraine therefore nowhere is really safe.

It's also good to know that seriously ill children, for example, have been medically evacuated for treatment outside Ukraine, etc.

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 11:39

Apparently the Russian Ministry of Defence claims the fire on the Moskva is localised, the ammunition detonations have stopped, the missile systems are undamaged and the ship is to be towed into port.

Yeah localised. So localised the ship is unoperational and needs a tow...

Satellite images on this should be interesting.

DGRossetti · 14/04/2022 11:41

@RedToothBrush

Apparently the Russian Ministry of Defence claims the fire on the Moskva is localised, the ammunition detonations have stopped, the missile systems are undamaged and the ship is to be towed into port.

Yeah localised. So localised the ship is unoperational and needs a tow...

Satellite images on this should be interesting.

The convoy needed to keep it safe in transit means there must be a few open goals elsewhere.
RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 11:42

Max Fras @maxfras
^Russia gives Ukraine tanks
Ukraine repays by giving Russia submarines^

Ijsbear · 14/04/2022 11:48

@RedToothBrush

Apparently the Russian Ministry of Defence claims the fire on the Moskva is localised, the ammunition detonations have stopped, the missile systems are undamaged and the ship is to be towed into port.

Yeah localised. So localised the ship is unoperational and needs a tow...

Satellite images on this should be interesting.

One hesitates to believe anything the Russian govt claims at all, but it's a pity if it's still towable and not currently providing the fish with a new playground
RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 11:52

Raf Sanchez @rafsanchez
NEW: Ukraine's military confirms it hit the Russian warship Moskva with missiles last night. It says the ship has begun to sink.

In the last major humiliation inflicted on Russia - the helicopter attack in Belgorod - Ukraine did not take credit for the attck.

Localised damage. Being towed.

Hmmm who to believe.

(Ukrainians have huge propaganda incentive to go take photos...)

TiddyTidTwo · 14/04/2022 11:54

Following the Neptune special operation last night, one is hearing very little from the Russian trolls on such threads.

Being towed back you say?

Ukraine Invasion: Part 20
notimagain · 14/04/2022 11:55

@Ijsbear

One hesitates to believe anything the Russian govt claims at all, but it's a pity if it's still towable and not currently providing the fish with a new playground

It ain't over yet - in '82 HMS Sheffield sunk whilst under tow towards South Georgia post it's Exocet strike...keep fingers crossed for high seas.

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 12:08

Dos Hacker @DshKo
Situation in #Mariupol, composed from several #Ukraine sources, is like this: the 36th Marine brigade split into 3 parts. The largest group led by a battalion commander moved to Azov's pocket. Small group led by the brigade commander attempted breakthrough towards Ukrainian lines.

This was small group, dozens, with about 30 vehicles and 2 tanks. Their convoy was hit, they dismounted and scattered. Some were taken prisoners. Commander's whereabouts unknown.

The third group stayed in their old pocket at Illich steelworks. Seems they were willing to surrender. Whether the second of 2 battalion commanders was part of any of 3 groups is not clear. Border guards, police and others are in that large pocket with Azov and the bulk of 36th

Don't know how reliable this is, but from everything I've read this seems a fairly credible assessment.

There clearly has been a split in the 36th Brigade leadership in what action they should take. Not everyone was willing to continue to follow the Brigade Commander.

This has been apparent from contradictory statements about having no option but to surrender and a separate one saying they intended to fight to the death.

The video yesterday with the heads of the Azov and the 36th Brigade also explicitly called those who had decided to surrender cowards and deserters and said they should not be called heroes.

I haven't seen much about the third group, but it would make sense. A group who didn't want to surrender, but though staying was suicide and wanted to at least try and fight their way out rather than just stay.

amchi · 14/04/2022 12:08

@PeepsAndSheeps

Sorry if I have missed the answer to this during my lurking, but what are the consequences of defining the situation in Ukriane as genocide?

Does it legally bind countries into taking any specific action?

See this article for an answer - www.timesofisrael.com/why-accusations-of-russian-genocide-in-ukraine-carry-more-heft-than-mere-words/

while I do agree with other posters that in practice it may not make much difference. Might in Israel though. Current government is teetering on the brink at the moment (not because of Ukraine, due to defection of one of Bennett's party members over bread in hospitals on passover). If it falls, Lapid (Yesh Atid) should take over as interim Prime Minister (part of the coalition agreement, the party that causes the fall loses the Prime Ministership while elections are called). Yesh Atid/Lapid have been much more openly and strongly pro-Ukraine than Bennett, but it might push Bennett etc over that line.

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 12:12

"Towed"

Oliver Alexander @oalexanderDK
The Lithuanian Minister of National Defense Arvydas Anušauskas posted this on Facebook about the Moskva (translated).

If this is true, then the ship sank 11 hours ago after capsizing and a heavy loss of life, if 54 sailors were rescued out of the ≈ 500 on board.
m.facebook.com/arvydas.anusauskas/posts/4800110346764569/
Original source

States Turkey and Romania have confirmed the ship completely sank.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 20
prettybird · 14/04/2022 12:16

With the Moscva incapacitated under tow, the fact that Russia has lost its Black Sea fleet flag ship means that the Montreux Convention now has an impact, as Russia can't replace it through the Bosporus.

The only way Russia can replenish the Black Sea fleet now would be to take resources from the Caspian Flotilla.

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 12:19

Chris O @chriso_wiki
Some thoughts on the apparent sinking of the Russian Black Sea flagship Moskva: if confirmed, it's likely to go down in history as one of the most audaciously successful attacks in modern naval history. /1

If she's been sunk, the Moskva will be the biggest warship lost since WW2: at 12,490 tons she's bigger than Argentina's General Belgrano, sunk by the Royal Navy in 1982. /2^

Apart from the symbolism of her likely loss, she's of great military value as a platform for air defence and missile bombardment of land targets. Her loss is of great significance to both sides. /3

She will likely be irreplaceable - the only ship of her class, built in Ukraine (!) in 1979. Russia can't transfer warships from elsewhere to replace her as Turkey has closed the Bosphorus to military traffic. /4

So how did Ukraine do it? Early reports suggest a brilliantly effective combination of tactics, strategy and the exploitation of its own capabilities, combined with awareness of Russian weaknesses. /5

The Moskva was reportedly struck by Ukrainian-designed Neptune anti-ship cruise missiles. These only entered service in 2019. They apparently hadn't seen action before in this war. /6

According to early reports, the attack took place during a storm. This would have made flying difficult but also helps to conceal shore-based activity from observation. The Russians wouldn't have seen the preparations. /7

Reportedly, the Ukrainians used a Bayraktar TB-2 drone to distract the Moskva. The Ukrainian Navy introduced TB-2s into service in August 2021. /8

In naval use, they can be employed to find enemy ships and relay their positions to coastal missile batteries, as well as carrying out direct attacks using their own payloads. /9

It's possible that the Ukrainians used a TB-2 to identify and target the Moskva for the Neptune battery. Or it could have been a sacrificial pawn to distract the cruiser. Or both! (I don't know if the TB-2 survived.) /10

How did the Russians not see the incoming Neptunes? The Moskva has/had a single main air defence radar - a 3P41 Volna phased array to guide S300 missiles. Problem is, it only has a 180 degree field of vision. /11

360 degree coverage is provided by MR-800 Voshkod/Top Pair 3-D long range air search radars for shorter-range SA-8 missiles. But it's likely that in the storm, they couldn't distinguish the sea-skimming Neptunes from the wavetops. /12

So it's likely that the Ukrainians purposefully got the Moskva to point its best radar in the wrong direction while the Neptunes sneaked under the coverage of the other radars. Very smart. /13

As for the Moskva - the Russians say it caught fire and the (surviving?) crew were evacuated. No crew means no damage control, which means an uncontained fire. /14

At the very least, it's likely to have burned down to the waterline, if it hasn't actually sunk. Reports suggest it was listing badly before it was evacuated, so there was probable water ingress. /15

Either way, the total loss of the Moskva as a military asset is highly, highly likely. The man in the Kremlin is having a very bad day today. /end

TargusEasting · 14/04/2022 12:27

States Turkey and Romania have confirmed the ship completely sank.

Well they should know. They have intelligence drones over the Black Sea this morning and I prefer their take on it than TASS's. Flagships don't go up due to accidents easily. Events like the Kursk happening in peacetime are extremely rare. What we do know is the Moskva would have been key to seaborne landings and also precision strikes on UA in the Donbas. We also know the UA have weapons able to strike ships at sea and assistance from numerous USAF, RAF planes (and others) circling over Romania 24/7. [Why Lufthansa and Etihad are still flying over the Black Sea rather than going further south astonishes me]. The rational, quick and easy conclusion to reach is a well organised and supported strike by the UA to take out this ship before it was to be used to support a ground assault in the Donbas.

Natsku · 14/04/2022 12:28

Oh that is excellent news if true (and most likely is true, why would Turkey and Romania lie?)

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 12:30

Giorgi Revishvili @revishvilig
Russian sources claim that Armed Forces of Ukraine hit missiles on village Klimovo, Bryansk 35km from Ukrainian border. There is Russian military storage facility in Klimovo. Waiting for official Ukrainian position

Just starting to see multiple reports along these lines. This post is the most interesting because others are suggesting its a house in a village thats been hit.

This post would give a reason for the area being targetted.

From two days ago:
Konrad Muzkya @konrad_muzkya
@capellaspace SAR acquired on 2110Z 07APR2022 showed new arrivals to Russian ground force positions at the villages of Biriuch. We have identified several of such concentration areas of Russian forces near the border with Ukraine. 1/3

Also @capellaspace SAR acquired 0029Z 06APR2022 shows Russian ground forces at Klimovo.These are likely forces that have recently withdrawn from northern Ukraine and have relocated to the area for refitting. Elements appear to be moving to the nearby rail transfer point (RTP)2/3

possibly rotating out to permanent basing locations or redeployed to eastern Ukraine. 3/3

It has photos attached.

Klimovo is to the North close to Chernihiv. It apparently also has an airbase.

DGRossetti · 14/04/2022 12:40

Russian sources claim that Armed Forces of Ukraine hit missiles on village Klimovo, Bryansk 35km from Ukrainian border. There is Russian military storage facility in Klimovo. Waiting for official Ukrainian position

Is this inside Russia ?

Push them back to Moscow ?

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 12:44

@DGRossetti

Russian sources claim that Armed Forces of Ukraine hit missiles on village Klimovo, Bryansk 35km from Ukrainian border. There is Russian military storage facility in Klimovo. Waiting for official Ukrainian position

Is this inside Russia ?

Push them back to Moscow ?

Yes. In Russia.

Maybe Russia will declare war on Ukraine for violating its sovereignty.

TargusEasting · 14/04/2022 12:50

Klimovo is to the North close to Chernihiv. It apparently also has an airbase. It is now unused. But looking at a Maxar image on GE, (which states 2022, but is most likely late Summer 2021) the runway is disused but from the image taken their are 250 assorted trucks and what appear to be MLRS vehicles. These are outside. What is inside the newly constructed sheds is not clear. There is no visible accommodation. I suspect this is a staging point today, but how much equipment is there and in what shape, who knows.

blueshoes · 14/04/2022 13:04

Maybe Russia will declare war on Ukraine for violating its sovereignty.

Grin
DGRossetti · 14/04/2022 13:05

But looking at a Maxar image on GE, (which states 2022, but is most likely late Summer 2021)

It would be a shame if some of the information on GE turned out to be wrong. Especially when accessed from Russian IP addresses ...

TargusEasting · 14/04/2022 13:08

52 degrees, 20' 32.49 N
32 degrees, 10' 47.97 E
That (disused) airbase at Klimovo again: Perfect for regrouping tanks due to the hardstanding. The sheds are probably workshops. Can't see the power supply in though. Probably all beneath ground or portable generators.

RedToothBrush · 14/04/2022 13:18

Just reading a thread about Belarus and aircraft stationed there.

The latest satellite seems to suggest theres now no aircraft (presumably either all downed or redeployed) and there doesn't seem to be many helicopters left either.

DuncinToffee · 14/04/2022 13:32

AFP News
Kyiv says 30 people, including eight civilians, returned to Ukraine in new prisoner swap with Russia

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