Huge problem with MIL. Involves child genitalia - sensitive topic

[Squiff70]

I decided not to NC for this so that MN mods can see if necessary that I'm a long-term poster and not a troll. I will try to be as sensitive as possible about such an emotive and delicate topic.

For reference, I have a 2 year old daughter. We lost her twin brother shortly after birth due to prematurity.

I'm currently 20 weeks pregnant with a little boy.

When we were expecting our twins - a boy and girl - just over two years ago, my MIL stuck her foot in in every way possible. She insisted I breastfeed both babies for at least six months. I told her (whilst pregnant) that I would TRY to BF and hoped that it would work out but laughed her hurtful and unnecessary comments off that I would "try BF until it sent me crazy". Our twins were born extremely prematurely and despite trying like crazy for five weeks, my milk never came in (I was also very ill with sepsis and our son passed away during this time too). I was and still am devastated that I wasn't able to provide my babies with breast milk.

Putting that aside, during that same pregnancy, MIL told us time and time again that we would have to "manipulate our son's genitals" every day so that he wouldn't grow up with a tight foreskin. She claims to have done this with her two sons (my DP and his brother) and said "it worked for them". I told DP that there was absolutely no way on this Earth that I would be doing this to our child and neither would he. He said HE would do it because his mum's word, apparently, is gospel. I told him I felt this was CSA (or borderline) and totally unnecessary unless advised by a paediatrician for medical reasons. He told me I was over-reacting but I remained firm that it was absolutely not going to happen.

Since our son passed away it hasn't been mentioned. As I said, I'm 20 weeks pregnant and we've recently found out it's a little boy. DP hasn't yet told his mum we're expecting another baby (it's a cultural thing - they are not British) but I am TERRIFIED that when he does tell her, and she finds out we're having another boy, that these demands (masked as motherly advice) will fire back up again.

Thankfully his mum lives in her native country, elsewhere but within Europe. She is planning to visit in June. She's only met our daughter a couple of times and I wouldn't leave her unattended with our baby.

When our son is born, DP wants his mum to come over to help us. I have significant health problems and my partner works BUT there's absolutely no way I would trust her alone with either of my children and if I am/DP is changing either of their nappies, I don't want her in the same room.

How the hell do I handle this? I feel way out of my depth. I can't talk to her myself as she doesn't speak any English and I don't speak any of her native language either. Even if that were possible, it would be an incredibly awkward conversation.

Lastly, my DP is a wonderful dad. I've never ever had reason to mistrust him with our daughter. We bath her together and he's changed hundreds of nappies when I both have and haven't been present. I trust him with my life and my daughter's life and there's no reason to think he would ever dream of harming her in any way. It's just his mum I am worried about and how what she says to DP can influence some of his parenting decisions.

Please help!

Do seek medical advice about this as while it is a recommended maneuver in SPECIFIC cases, it may NOT be in other cases. The age of the boy and the symptoms he has are relevant.

@Easterisoffeggstooexpensive

Wtf? I have 8 ds's. Never ever manhandled their genitals!! None have had any foreskin issues.!. You dh needs a chat with a mw or hv.

I dont have that many but I do have some, and no i was never told this or had any problems

We're talking about the suggestion of a parent wanting to regularly manipulate their very young child's genitals for no actual proven or recommended reason - whether their intentions are evil or just very misguidedly thinking it will help, do you seriously think that only a troll would even question this?

Lots of other people on this thread have heard of this advice so clearly it is recommended by some healthcare practitioners, even if it's outdated. Wrong advice from elderly relatives is very common and although annoying it certainly doesn't mean the relative is an abuser or that fathers who take their mother's advice are unsafe around children. Obviously you should question advice - and the OP is. But only a person trying to cause offence would say that the op needs to get rid of her husband over this. Maybe you need to read bit more carefully so that you don't get yourself mixed up.

Another perspective, is I actually remember having to go to my GP aged around 5 or 6 after this had become a problem and be shown , in front of my mum, and nurse, by the GP, what to do. It was 1) embarrassing, 2) painful.

It sounds as though there is a cultural, medical or ?religious tendency in whatever country you MIL is from to recommend this as a way of preventing issues.

How is it inappropriate to teach a child to get into good hygiene habits from a young age? I'm sure many mother's teach their young daughters proper wiping technique to avoid sti's etc.

Because those hygiene habits are not yet relevant to him at his age - a natural, non-retracting foreskin (owing to age) clearly does not need to be cleaned underneath where it is still naturally sealed, of a build-up of bodily fluids that he doesn't yet produce.

You might as well encourage your toddler daughter to regularly examine the breasts that she won't have for years.

But only a person trying to cause offence would say that the op needs to get rid of her husband over this. Maybe you need to read bit more carefully so that you don't get yourself mixed up.

I can't remember reading which poster said that; all I know is that it certainly wasn't me, unless somebody wanted to seriously reach and add their own very loose interpretation to what somebody else actually said.

"There's a very big difference between 5 years old and the onset of puberty"

Regardless, boys from the age of 5 onwards should be taught proper hygiene and to try to retract their foreskins to prevent adhesions. This is not just due to bodily fluids that are not produced at that age but stale urine etc. You have posters here who have given personal accounts of issues that have been caused and embarrassment by having nurses etc demonstrate to boys at an older (albeit pre pube scent ages). I posted on this thread because I think some mother's can be unaware and dismissive of male issues and you as a woman are lecturing posters on male hygiene. Is there such a thing as womansplaining? because your doing it

@walksen

"There's a very big difference between 5 years old and the onset of puberty"

Regardless, boys from the age of 5 onwards should be taught proper hygiene and to try to retract their foreskins to prevent adhesions. This is not just due to bodily fluids that are not produced at that age but stale urine etc. You have posters here who have given personal accounts of issues that have been caused and embarrassment by having nurses etc demonstrate to boys at an older (albeit pre pube scent ages). I posted on this thread because I think some mother's can be unaware and dismissive of male issues and you as a woman are lecturing posters on male hygiene. Is there such a thing as womansplaining? because your doing it

No, they shouldn't.

This is shit old fashioned, non basis in medical science advice.

I think the advice comes from men who were circumcised so they still think uncut penises are grubby. They're not.

Teenagers need to learn how to clean under their foreskin when it retracts, not to force it when they're babies.

"I think the advice comes from men who were circumcised"

No I wasn't and am not. I did however have to experience a hugely embarrassing nurse examine me at a young age in primary school because my foreskin would not retract because we weren't taught to do so and my brothers were both circumcised. Had they been encouraged to retract regularly it would have been necessary and I wouldn't have had phimosis as a young adult, which I eventually resolved by non surgical means but it was not an easy or pleasant experience.

But continue to dismiss my real life experiences. You are a woman so I guess you must know better.

@walksen

"I think the advice comes from men who were circumcised"

No I wasn't and am not. I did however have to experience a hugely embarrassing nurse examine me at a young age in primary school because my foreskin would not retract because we weren't taught to do so and my brothers were both circumcised. Had they been encouraged to retract regularly it would have been necessary and I wouldn't have had phimosis as a young adult, which I eventually resolved by non surgical means but it was not an easy or pleasant experience.

But continue to dismiss my real life experiences. You are a woman so I guess you must know better.

I'm sorry your penis didn't work properly. It's clear it has been a very upsetting and painful experience. But this isn't why.

If your theory was correct, the British would have died out eons ago because this simply isn't a thing in the U.K. OR British penises are more highly evolved than their European cousins. Again, unlikely.

I don't know a single British man who has done this. Their penises (on the whole) work fine.

Okay, I think this has derailed a bit!

"this isn't why."

I think I've made it clear that I have lots of personal experience on this and guarantee I researched it more than you have and also spoke to medical professionals about it. - but keep womansplaining. I'd never dream of lecturing a woman on vulva and vaginal health but you apparently have no such reservation

"If your theory was correct, the British would have died out eons ago"

Again ridiculous. I've never stated that I was unable to have sex or unable to reproduce things just didn't work as well as they should do was less enjoyable. I was also worried about increased chances of penile cancer. It doesn't have to mean that every man will experience problems it just means that it can help some of them. Britain has also got more of a culture of circumcision to resolve such issues which would prevent "brits dying out"!

"I don't know a single British man who has done this. Their penises (on the whole) work fine."

Another ridiculous argument which minimises another person's experience., And is a little hurtful. Let me show how offensive this by changing the context

" I don't know a single woman who has been raped. On the whole the patriachy works just fine"

My son had to have an op for a hernia when he was about a year old. We were told he would need to be circumcised too as the foreskin wouldn't pull back. I'd never heard anything about this before and looking back I wish I'd questioned the doctor at the hospital further, I just went along with what I was told.

but keep womansplaining. I'd never dream of lecturing a woman on vulva and vaginal health but you apparently have no such reservation

Just as a side issue, you do realise that not everybody on MN is female, don't you? Many who are female are not actually mums either! From your posting, it appears that you are neither, so you must realise this!

You don't know the sex, job, circumstances or life experiences (themselves or loved ones) of anybody on here, unless they explicitly state or indicate something to be/not to be the case - so make sure you aren't guilty of making the same assumptions that you quickly accuse others of.

I'm sorry that you've had health problems in that area, but that's in no way any kind of 'proof' that some random, potentially dangerous and very likely inappropriate (unless essential for medical need) action causes/prevents a later occurrence.

Some people avoid walking on cracks in the pavement in an attempt to avoid accidental death - and most of them end up surviving to a good old age; and some of the people who don't ever care about avoiding the cracks, do end up dying in accidental circumstances - it doesn't prove that, if only they had avoided the cracks, they wouldn't have been knocked over the following day by a bus.

"Just as a side issue, you do realise that not everybody on MN is female, don't you"

Yes as a man posting on this site I am aware of this!

Doesn't stop some of the female posters on here claiming to more than I do or even the medical professionals who helped me with my issues apparently, and minimising the experiences of myself and other male posters on this thread.

Not sure analogies to do with cracks in pavements overrides opinions of urologists etc that helped me with my issues.

It's about as useful as telling women to catch a bus when the feel unsafe walking home. That doesn't mean some might get injured because they don't look out for cracks in the pavement while doing so.

I'm assuming you're an adult walksen and that therefore the advice you were given is not that recent.
In all likelihood, the medical professionals who gave you that advice did so honestly, in good faith and in the light of the best information they had at the time. Either that or they were not up to date with current guidance, which does unfortunately happen sometimes.
Things change as more knowledge develops. Several people have posted the current NHS guidance and information from the British Association of Urological Surgeons has also been shared upthread. Current evidence suggests that forcible retraction of the foreskin not only doesn't prevent problems, but can cause them.
This happens often in medicine. When I look back across my career which started in the 80s and ended very recently, some of the things thant I believed implicitly at the beginning of my career had been well and truly debunked by the end. It can however take a long time for newer evidence and guidance to filter through, both in the profession and beyond so outdated advice often lives on long after it's been disproven.
I worked in paediatric theatres for a sizeable chunk of my career and in my early years circumcision of small boys was an incredibly common procedure. By the time I retired we were doing a small fraction of the number - again, because knowledge has advanced and it's now been realised that a lot of previous procedures were unnecessary. Not all of course, but the current thinking is very much that less is more when it comes to foreskin issues. When I was a young doctor the teaching was defintely that a non retractile foreskin by around age 2 required surgery. I can well believe most urologists gave the same advice as you received. But they don't now - or at least they shouldn't. A lot of what was seen as abnormal in the past is now recognised as a normal part of development, which takes longer in some boys than others. The urologists I worked with in the later part of my career (all men, bar one as it happens) would advocate watchful waiting in most cases and definitely would not recommend routine retraction of the foreskin in young boys.
What you were told might have been best practice at the time, but it isn't seen that way now.

Doesn't stop some of the female posters on here claiming to more than I do or even the medical professionals who helped me with my issues apparently, and minimising the experiences of myself and other male posters on this thread.

Not sure analogies to do with cracks in pavements overrides opinions of urologists etc that helped me with my issues.

But that is exactly what I'm saying: you don't know which posters are male or female and/or which of them might have had direct experience of this exact issue when helping/supporting/caring for affect husbands or sons - or actually be qualified urologists/related HCPs themselves - the vast majority of whom would understand basic infant urological biology and advise accordingly.

*affectED

Those that say never retract this is my experience after having 4 boys and doing it both ways. The two youngest that we left alone ( not retracted )had lots of problems when they reached their mid teens ended up having to have medical intervention. The two oldest we started gentle retraction at bath time ( that was what you were told to do in those days and also what my mother used to do ) had no issues at all. I wish I hadn't listened to the new advice it would have saved my two youngest having to go through those embarrassing problems. I truly believe that foreskin just dose not decide to retract by itself unless the boy has a very loose one. It is a process that can take years one of my oldest boys didn't retract till he was about four.

I think some babies have tighter foreskin than others. I've had 2 boys never needed to do anything and they very quickly fiddled by themselves. My 1st boyfriend was circumcised age 2 due to tightness- so sometimes there's a need others not. I feel you should be upfront with your DH and get him to rely the message it's not happening so don't bother bringing it up Ma

I was thinking this. I have two sons and this has never been suggested by a medic. Never even heard of it tbh.

Is she Italian by any chance? I remember this being mentioned on a thread here years ago by someone given the advice in Italy.