Huge problem with MIL. Involves child genitalia - sensitive topic

[Squiff70]

I decided not to NC for this so that MN mods can see if necessary that I'm a long-term poster and not a troll. I will try to be as sensitive as possible about such an emotive and delicate topic.

For reference, I have a 2 year old daughter. We lost her twin brother shortly after birth due to prematurity.

I'm currently 20 weeks pregnant with a little boy.

When we were expecting our twins - a boy and girl - just over two years ago, my MIL stuck her foot in in every way possible. She insisted I breastfeed both babies for at least six months. I told her (whilst pregnant) that I would TRY to BF and hoped that it would work out but laughed her hurtful and unnecessary comments off that I would "try BF until it sent me crazy". Our twins were born extremely prematurely and despite trying like crazy for five weeks, my milk never came in (I was also very ill with sepsis and our son passed away during this time too). I was and still am devastated that I wasn't able to provide my babies with breast milk.

Putting that aside, during that same pregnancy, MIL told us time and time again that we would have to "manipulate our son's genitals" every day so that he wouldn't grow up with a tight foreskin. She claims to have done this with her two sons (my DP and his brother) and said "it worked for them". I told DP that there was absolutely no way on this Earth that I would be doing this to our child and neither would he. He said HE would do it because his mum's word, apparently, is gospel. I told him I felt this was CSA (or borderline) and totally unnecessary unless advised by a paediatrician for medical reasons. He told me I was over-reacting but I remained firm that it was absolutely not going to happen.

Since our son passed away it hasn't been mentioned. As I said, I'm 20 weeks pregnant and we've recently found out it's a little boy. DP hasn't yet told his mum we're expecting another baby (it's a cultural thing - they are not British) but I am TERRIFIED that when he does tell her, and she finds out we're having another boy, that these demands (masked as motherly advice) will fire back up again.

Thankfully his mum lives in her native country, elsewhere but within Europe. She is planning to visit in June. She's only met our daughter a couple of times and I wouldn't leave her unattended with our baby.

When our son is born, DP wants his mum to come over to help us. I have significant health problems and my partner works BUT there's absolutely no way I would trust her alone with either of my children and if I am/DP is changing either of their nappies, I don't want her in the same room.

How the hell do I handle this? I feel way out of my depth. I can't talk to her myself as she doesn't speak any English and I don't speak any of her native language either. Even if that were possible, it would be an incredibly awkward conversation.

Lastly, my DP is a wonderful dad. I've never ever had reason to mistrust him with our daughter. We bath her together and he's changed hundreds of nappies when I both have and haven't been present. I trust him with my life and my daughter's life and there's no reason to think he would ever dream of harming her in any way. It's just his mum I am worried about and how what she says to DP can influence some of his parenting decisions.

Please help!

I have a son almost 10 years old and I've never ever touched his genitals other than wiping during nappy changes as a baby and general washing when he was younger. Now he washes himself. I've never retracted his foreskin. I've never heard of this practice in the UK, never been advised as the mother of a son to do this. my boy has never complained of a sore Penis or tight foreskin I'm sure they grow up perfectly fine without this needing to be done. I'd find it a bit weird to be honest and wouldn't be able to do it as it would feel wrong.

As said above the only thing would bother me s that you cant communicate so how would that work if youre left alone with her-i.e teling her not to touch his penis

The expression 'total bollocks' was basically invented to respond to idiocy of the kind spouted by your MIL. Medical advice is to leave well alone.

Again, thank you for all the replies, opinions, links, advice and reasonable debate. I take all your posts on board and have read them all.

At some point soon, at an appropriate moment, I'll raise the issue with DP and discuss this again on our own and will also ask for current medical advice at an antenatal appointment where DP is with me. We need to be on the same page with regards to how we both choose to raise our children. So far we've never really disagreed on anything (certainly nothing major!) and have always worked through difficulties together as a team. Our daughter was in NICU for five months so teamwork between myself and DP, initially guided by the nurses, was key. We had to learn to care for this tiny baby who was on a ventilator for a long time, with lots of wires and tubes and she was extremely fragile after having major surgery also. If it wasn't for teamwork, we wouldn't have got through it. We still work as a team as parents on all aspects of caring for our daughter and I wouldn't want it any other way.

I digress. I won't be reporting anyone to anywhere! Where is my reason to? Where is my evidence?

I've said, VERY CLEARLY, that I have no reason to distrust my DP. I never have had. I will have a frank discussion with him about this before our son in born and about cultural aspects, medical advice given to us at this time, and what I do and do not deem an acceptable or appropriate way to care for our son.

I find it inconceivable that two people have said, categorically, that my DP cannot be trusted around children. That is an absolutely ridiculous notion from people who don't know a thing about him other than the fact that he naively thinks his mum's advice is the RIGHT advice for no other reason that they he, personally, has not had difficulties with his intimate parts growing up and he believes that's solely down to his mum's decision to treat him and his brother in the way she did over 30 years ago. I do NOT know that she was OR wasn't acting on medical advice given to her at that time.

I'll leave this thread open to replies for a little while longer but have decided to ask for it to be removed later. The only reason being I do not want anyone with nefarious ideas or reasons to come across this thread or actively seek out subjects such as this. I'm sure you don't need me to explain that further.

Lastly, thank you also for your condolences regarding our daughter's twin brother. We love him and miss him always and there's not an hour goes by when I don't think of him.

I got that advise from the pediatrician in Spain when my son was born

I am currently living in an Eastern part of Europe (originally from the UK) and was appalled and horrified when everyone started asking me whether I was doing this to my son. The thought of it literally made me break out into a cold sweat, and feel dizzy. And although I think my son's GP is wonderful (and usually follow his advice to the letter), when he told me we had to do this I have completely ignored all of his instructions.
Everyone here sees it as very normal and the usual thing to be doing. In fact I feel like sometimes I am "bad mother" for not doing it, since it is just one of those things you should be doing.
Just by chance I had to take my son to a surgeon in our very modern children's hospital yesterday for precisely this matter (the GP sent us) and the surgeon was telling us we had to do this. They have a method here where the surgeon firmly pulls the skin, which seems so barbaric and I told my husband that if the surgeon even starts to seem he is going to do this, I will grab my son and run out of the room with him. Perhaps a little dramatic on my part, but it is inconceivable to me that this can be seen as acceptable practice. My husband, since he is from here, told me I was making a fuss because this is what everyone does. Luckily it didn't come to this because the surgeon said it could wait for longer before he would do this.
I think there are some things in some places that are seen as absolutely usual practice (like double nappies for hip dysplasia, as well a big thing here) that in others are totally abnormal.
I write all this because there is a definite culture clash in our household about this, and it is a very difficult one because it is such a terribly sensitive area. But I think it is so engrained here as being something "usual" that it is difficult for people to see that others may think differently about it, especially when they are being advised by their doctors.

it is not normal no OP, No need to do that - but im sure off this thread you know.

My only advice is to never leave your MIL alone with your children, and never let her change them ever.

I've got 2 boys 8 and 5 years old and I never had to do anything with theirs but in some cases I've heard it might he needed but not as a standard practice

Hi. I am a 64 year old grandmother of 5, including 2 grandsons. I had 4 sons and 1 daughter myself. My youngest son was free from any 'problems' with his punishment- well we might as well be straightforward. The eldest son was born with a condition called hypospadius. This is when the opening for passing urine is underneath instead of being on the tip of the pens. He had to have 2 corrective surgeries. My second son had quite a tight foreskin that was quite difficult to retract for washing/keeping clean. Thus is necessary for a little boy. It still seems to be for little boys of '22 as both my grandson's sets of parents are attentive to this. This son developed adhesions between the foreskin and the actual punishment. These had to be surgically freed which was quite distressing. The next boy down was found to have both a very tight foreskin and undescended testes. So he had to have the testes (only on one side but not safe to leave it as places him at risk of testicular cancer later) surgically brought down and he was circumcised, much to my consternation.
All I am saying is little boys and their 'bits' can be prone to complications.
I am so sorry about the loss of your first son and I can appreciate this must be a difficult period to navigate in your life. I wonder if the Health Visitor would be able to assist you to navigate the problem with your MIL.

I find it inconceivable that two people have said, categorically, that my DP cannot be trusted

It's no reflection on the reality of your situation. Just internet trolls - best to completely ignore.

On a side note, have you considered learning your husband's language? Presumably he will want the children to learn it. That would probably help with your mother in law problems.

When DS was born 27 years ago in the US this was standard advice from OB/Gyn and Pediatrician, and it was to be done for years. I delivered in a university hospital. The pediatrician was a professor or pediatrics.

I don't know what the advice is currently, but it was definitely considered the thing to do back then.

I don't think you should allow a woman who doesn't speak English to come to stay after the baby is born. She would basically be there to support your DP, not you, and would end up distressing you. This can lead to all sorts of problems. Tell DP she can come when you're all settled.

..............
Fwiw, double diapering is supported by some research. It's not quite as unthinkable as a pp believes it is.

I have 4 sons, and never did this with any of them. Never heard it mentioned from anyone either. Unless there is a medical reason, leave well alone.

@mathanxiety

If you are referring to what I wrote, just to clarify, I didn't say that it is unthinkable. I was just using it as another example of how different practices are considered normal/abnormal in different places. When I spoke to people in the UK about double nappies, quite a few offered a very similar narrative to the one on this thread here - it is an old-fashioned/outdated practice. However when I was talking to a friend who is an orthopedic surgeon about it, they said that they think it is a beneficial practice (as in it can do no harm and may help).
As I see it, the important thing regarding the OP's concerns about her MIL is that it may very well be that in the MIL's cultural context some things are considered "usual practice" which are not in the UK context.

This is definitely a thing e.g. in Italy. To go from that to "my MIL is a paedophile" is quite a jump!

Lots of practices are A Thing in different parts of the world - it doesn't mean that they must all be OK, just because enough people do them.

Definitely a European thing and/or a 1960s/ 70s thing.

Enjoy this pregnancy and your son.
God bless you all.

I have a son and have never done this, and never been advised to, it's never been mentioned at all in any healthcare setting.

My brother was almost circumcised because he was too tight and it was painful but a minor operation to stretch the skin rectified it eventually. So I am aware with some boys there may be a need for certain treatments IF they have a physical problem.

I would take your husband to a midwife appointment and ask them to explain this to him clearly them draw a line under it. This is your baby, your MIL needs to butt out and your husband needs to grow up and stop hanging off his mums every word.

OP, I wasn't saying that your DP cannot be trusted owing to any kind of ill intent on his part. I'm sure he isn't a bad man at all, but he is being very easily led - by somebody who has normalised extremely inappropriate behaviour for him from a young age. I also don't know of his mother's intentions; all I know is that, if a parent did want to normalise CSA, it's surely a tactic that they would use, telling the child that regularly doing 'this' to their genitals was essential to keep them healthy and that they (the parent) was thus doing something kind and loving to them.

My only focus was on concern that your DS not be hurt and violated.

I would say the same if your DP figured that chocolate and sweets are really nice and so, because he wants what he believes to be best for his child, he would feed the child nothing but 4-packs of Chunky Kit Kats and family-sized bags of Haribo for every meal from 6 months, so that the child would really enjoy everything they eat, which seems like 'a nice thing'. Of course, you would speak to him about it and do your best to make him see sense; but if he point blank refused to accept that his way (wherever he'd got it from) was harmful and thus was determined to keep doing it, you would be forced to either escalate or just sit back and accept the treatment for your child.

[quote Pixiedust1234]@Hoppinggreen - four different women who raised sons. I know two were told by HV, third was told that if she had done this to her son as a baby he wouldn't have had the medical problems he had, by a hospital consultant. The fourth never disclosed to me who told her. This was decades ago so maybe its different now, same as how to lay babies down in the cots. Different times, different advice.[/quote]
My baby boy is 50, I was always told you leave the foreskin alone and it retracts when nature intended.

My experience is that people can be quite dismissive of foreskin issues etc because there is an attitude that circumcision is a minor procedure.

I had years of problems because like many posters on this thread have stated things were left to take their course, and if things go wrong resort to surgery. I hid these issues from my parents due to embarrassment so if my parents were posting in this thread they would say I had no issues.

Generally I read that up to the age of between 3 and 5 the foreskin can have adhesions and may not retract, and you should not try to force it. Male children should be encouraged to try gently retracting from that age for hygiene purposes at least and to reduce the odds of phimosis occuring as the penis develops as retracting will ensure that the foreskin will stretch accordingly. This is particularly important as the child enters puberty for obvious reasons.

I am not sure that it is necessary for an adult to try to retract the foreskin themselves, especially for babies and toddlers but the insinuation that the mil is being inappropriate and/or abusive is a bit much.

It's no reflection on the reality of your situation. Just internet trolls - best to completely ignore.

Just because their opinion doesn't always agree with yours, that doesn't make somebody who regularly posts on threads about numerous topics for years a troll.

We're talking about the suggestion of a parent wanting to regularly manipulate their very young child's genitals for no actual proven or recommended reason - whether their intentions are evil or just very misguidedly thinking it will help, do you seriously think that only a troll would even question this?

Nobody likes actual trolls, but it's a very lazy trope to default to every time somebody disagrees with you - like the word 'bigot', which is now routinely used by many to describe anybody whose opinions and perspectives differ from theirs.

Generally I read that up to the age of between 3 and 5 the foreskin can have adhesions and may not retract, and you should not try to force it. Male children should be encouraged to try gently retracting from that age for hygiene purposes at least and to reduce the odds of phimosis occuring as the penis develops as retracting will ensure that the foreskin will stretch accordingly. This is particularly important as the child enters puberty for obvious reasons.

There's a very big difference between 5 years old and the onset of puberty.

Any medical problem - sexual or otherwise - could present itself as an adult. How do you think it will help to treat a young child inappropriately as if they were an adult, just in case they later do have problems that are only an issue for adults/adolescents?

"How do you think it will help to treat a young child inappropriately"

How is it inappropriate to teach a child to get into good hygiene habits from a young age? I'm sure many mother's teach their young daughters proper wiping technique to avoid sti's etc.

My MIL is also from another country and - before I stopped speaking to her entirely - would also go really OTT pushing advice from her home country on how we raised our kids. It was like some weird, defensive, overcompensation for the fact they weren't being brought up in her country and like she needed confirmation that she did it 'right' despite it not being done in the UK. Anyway, I declined the 1950s Soviet Union sponsored baby care advice and all was well.

Might it be something like that?

told that if she had done this to her son as a baby he wouldn't have had the medical problems he had, by a hospital consultant

Just because a hospital consultant has said something it does not always mean that it is true.

Do not manipulate the foreskin. It will separate naturally with time. Leave it alone. I'm medical.