Huge problem with MIL. Involves child genitalia - sensitive topic

[Squiff70]

I decided not to NC for this so that MN mods can see if necessary that I'm a long-term poster and not a troll. I will try to be as sensitive as possible about such an emotive and delicate topic.

For reference, I have a 2 year old daughter. We lost her twin brother shortly after birth due to prematurity.

I'm currently 20 weeks pregnant with a little boy.

When we were expecting our twins - a boy and girl - just over two years ago, my MIL stuck her foot in in every way possible. She insisted I breastfeed both babies for at least six months. I told her (whilst pregnant) that I would TRY to BF and hoped that it would work out but laughed her hurtful and unnecessary comments off that I would "try BF until it sent me crazy". Our twins were born extremely prematurely and despite trying like crazy for five weeks, my milk never came in (I was also very ill with sepsis and our son passed away during this time too). I was and still am devastated that I wasn't able to provide my babies with breast milk.

Putting that aside, during that same pregnancy, MIL told us time and time again that we would have to "manipulate our son's genitals" every day so that he wouldn't grow up with a tight foreskin. She claims to have done this with her two sons (my DP and his brother) and said "it worked for them". I told DP that there was absolutely no way on this Earth that I would be doing this to our child and neither would he. He said HE would do it because his mum's word, apparently, is gospel. I told him I felt this was CSA (or borderline) and totally unnecessary unless advised by a paediatrician for medical reasons. He told me I was over-reacting but I remained firm that it was absolutely not going to happen.

Since our son passed away it hasn't been mentioned. As I said, I'm 20 weeks pregnant and we've recently found out it's a little boy. DP hasn't yet told his mum we're expecting another baby (it's a cultural thing - they are not British) but I am TERRIFIED that when he does tell her, and she finds out we're having another boy, that these demands (masked as motherly advice) will fire back up again.

Thankfully his mum lives in her native country, elsewhere but within Europe. She is planning to visit in June. She's only met our daughter a couple of times and I wouldn't leave her unattended with our baby.

When our son is born, DP wants his mum to come over to help us. I have significant health problems and my partner works BUT there's absolutely no way I would trust her alone with either of my children and if I am/DP is changing either of their nappies, I don't want her in the same room.

How the hell do I handle this? I feel way out of my depth. I can't talk to her myself as she doesn't speak any English and I don't speak any of her native language either. Even if that were possible, it would be an incredibly awkward conversation.

Lastly, my DP is a wonderful dad. I've never ever had reason to mistrust him with our daughter. We bath her together and he's changed hundreds of nappies when I both have and haven't been present. I trust him with my life and my daughter's life and there's no reason to think he would ever dream of harming her in any way. It's just his mum I am worried about and how what she says to DP can influence some of his parenting decisions.

Please help!

I don't think it's CSA but I wouldn't let her anywhere near your son on her own and I'd want a sworn undertaking from your husband he's not going to do it either.

I'm so sorry about the loss of your eldest son

@Georgeskitchen

I'm a mother of sons, adults now I've never heard of this practice. (UK)

Me too.

She sounds utterly batshit and your partner doesn't sound very respectful either.

Only on MN do the men get to dictate their mothers visiting and staying after a new baby.

I have NEVER heard of it IRL.

There is a lot going on in your message.

1. I think some level of foreskin manipulation might be a natural thing. A lot of baby boys play with their willies. Mine didn’t. We didn’t do anything with it until it became apparent that it was a problem. We had a year of steroid cream and manipulation but ultimately surgery was necessary. I have always wondered whether early intervention might have avoided the need for surgery. I bet there is some story behind this obsession of hers and it doesn’t mean she is going to launch in and do it herself.

1. There is a high chance you will have no problems breastfeeding this time.

1. Your last experience sounds deeply traumatic and I would hope there is some sensitivity on that front. Tell your husband to forewarn her to be gentle with you this summer and not to give advice or pass judgement. You need to feel safe and confident.

1. Without knowing what your disability is no one can comment on your need for live-in assistance after your baby is born, but most mothers manage without and would rather not have a guest staying with them for at least six weeks after the baby is born, and then only for a short visit. If that is your preferred option then say so.

I think you are not seeing the problem your partner poses to your children. He was ready to follow the advice of his mother without your consent. How could you ever trust him? What if you disagree about something else?

I think you need to get your go to explain to him why this is a form of abuse and not in the best interests of the child.

There are a number of laws for genital mutilation and you can be charged even years down the line. Teachers are duty bound for example to report anything like this. Now I don't know whether this would be covered under current law, but it could be. I would do some research.

Genital mutilation is not cultural this is a form of abuse and we need to stop masking it under headings such as cultural because it is an attempt to make it acceptable in society which it is not.

Gp not go!

I think it used to be a thing but is basically an old wives tale. Sometimes it needs to be done but a doctor would tell you if that were the case.

The only time I've ever pulled the foreskin back a little was after a particularly spectacular poonami that got everywhere. And I mean everywhere.

I think she is outdated but probably harmless. That said, trust your gut and if you don't feel right leaving the baby alone with her or her seeing him unclothed then don't. There isn't really any reason she would if you don't see her that much.

I haven’t read the full thread but I lived in Bulgaria when DS was a baby and was advised to do this by a doctor there. It’s definitely a thing in some countries.

I didn’t do it but did speak to a doctor in my own country who said no way. DS’s foreskin was apparently a bit tight but he never had any issues and is now an adult.

My son is 42, and I have never heard of this in uk, but he did have to be circumcised at around 2 years old.

Keep her away from your son.

If he has a tight foreskin when he's older, it'll be dealt with at the time with steroid creams or potentially a circumcision. Neither is a big deal.

It might be a generational thing as well.

My ex boyfriend (born in late 70s, in Spain, if that's relevant in any way) told me that when he was little his mum used to make sure to retract his foreskin every time he had a bath. I don't know how often he had a bath (once a week or every day), but the fact that he remembers it suggests that it went on for years rather than weeks. The way he talked about it, it sounded like it was a big deal back then, for example he mentioned that "all the mums" did it, and made it sound like it was something the mums discussed a lot, and the doctors of the day were quite insistent upon. They said it was important to stop the foreskin getting too tight. So if your MIL is from that generation, (and maybe that country...?), it might have been the issue du jour when she was a young mum, if you see what I mean..? Like how my grandmothers were told babies need to cry lots to "exercise their lungs" and my mother was told that putting babies to sleep on their fronts is best, and then people get a bit obsessed with it and then it turns out to be wrong.

I don't know what the current advice is, although I have seen a few online articles suggesting that doctors don't recommend it anymore because it has the opposite effect. Anyway, maybe it's best to ask your own GP - that way if he says no then you've got a solid basis for telling your MIL that no, you're not doing it and that's final.

But anyway, I just wanted to say that I don't find your MIL's advice or her insistence surprising at all, from what my ex bf told me.

@SpiderinaWingMirror

I don't get the CSA reference. You and she don't speak the same language? So I really don't see how you have picked up this inferred intent? Tell your dh that it will not be happening.

Massaging a baby's penis daily is not healthy, safe or appropriate behaviour. It might not be intended to be sexual abuse but it's certainly on the spectrum of sexually abusive behaviour.

What? Females don’t have opening?
Many females have a Hymen…but that is not usually a complete closure ( only very small minority), and some don’t have a hymen more than a sort of elastic tissue “ring” around the opening….hence why virginity tests are useless, pointless and infringement on girls/womens Autonomy

Newborn baby girls don't have an opening to their vagina. It's not completely covered over but the hymen covers it almost entirely and over time it retracts to the point where it may disappear altogether.

Why don't you ask your family DR/GP about this, and get them to talk to DP. If you get him on side then he can squash MIL.

We have never manipulated our sons'foreskins ( never even heard of it. ) They are all adults now, with normal healthy urinary systems and active happy sex lives.

As for her "coming to help" after the birth; since you and she have no common language and can't communicate I wonder just how much "help" she would be? Does your little girl speak DP's language? It would be pretty stressful to any new mother, to be stuck with a "help" with widely different cultural expectations, keeping up a running commentary you (and possibly DC_ can't understand or reply to.

This. The foreskin start siff attached to the glans, fiddling with it breaks that connection before it is ready/developed enough to do it naturally.

Yes, it's supposed to be tight and not retractable until the boy is older. If it did naturally retract, it could be very difficult to maintain good hygiene in somebody young enough to still be in nappies, leaving him prone to infections if (sorry to be blunt) poo got under there. The main (eventual) purpose of a foreskin retracting is to facilitate sexual intercourse, which is obviously of no relevance to a baby or young child.

Forcibly (and painfully) retracting a baby/young boy's foreskin long before it is supposed to retract, on the spurious grounds that he might have difficulties when he's older if it doesn't, is just as ridiculous as putting him in a mediaeval-style rack and stretching him out, to make sure that he isn't short as an adult, in case he doesn't grow.

Yes, some adult men do have issues with phimosis, and that is when they may want to seek medical assistance; just as some men do have conditions that leave them very short as adults, about which they too may want to seek medical advice.

Her intentions may not be deliberately to perpetrate CSA, but what she is advocating (and all of the 'doctors' who do likewise) IS CSA. It's very concerning that she seems to obsess about it long before the baby is even born. Keep her well away from having the opportunity to do it and make sure that your husband doesn't try it either: tell him that, intentionally or otherwise, it IS CSA, is harmful rather than helpful and, if he doesn't agree, I would threaten reporting him to the authorities - and do so if necessary. I don't want to be over-dramatic, but your baby has an absolute right not to be violated in this way.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

*What? Females don’t have opening? Many females have a Hymen…but that is not usually a complete closure ( only very small minority), and some don’t have a hymen more than a sort of elastic tissue “ring” around the opening….hence why virginity tests are useless, pointless and infringement on girls/womens Autonomy*

Newborn baby girls don't have an opening to their vagina. It's not completely covered over but the hymen covers it almost entirely and over time it retracts to the point where it may disappear altogether.

If it's not completely covered then they do have an opening

But the original point stands: there is no need for anyone to be interfering with this and increasing the opening, just as there is no need for anyone to be fiddling with baby boy's foreskins.

TRIGGER WARNING please note OP, as i don't want to cause any distress .Looking at it from the most likely scenario....i have heard this said before ,family member was told it by a GP and after investigation and asking other health professionals we concluded it was an old practise to do this on a "routine" basis and that the advice given by GP was inaccurate and old fashioned hence advice was disregarded. The less likely scenario but one I want to highlight as it appears an odd/unusual thing for your MIL to be emphasising about a babe still in the womb - i had an ex in another country who was abused by his mum as a child, I won't say much other than it involved her frequently handling his penis. I would ask your other half to investigate more about why specifically she is saying this ,for him to directly ask health visitors etc about this practise and get advice direct from the horses mouth and why it is no longer a recommended practise....and if possible ,are you able to have a discussion about what "rules" or "practices" did he have in his household regarding personal contact between parents and children. Most families for eg. will have an age at which a mum no longer sees her naked son or is involved in washing/bathing him and if your husband has memories of her being involved in this I would want to know more.

It's disgusting to even think about, but PP was right that deliberately 'preparing' a very young boy for sex when he's older by interfering with his foreskin is just as appalling as it would be to keep poking your finger into a young girl's genitals to supposedly 'prepare' her for sex when she's older.

Anybody who genuinely believes in and advocates either of these - to be honest, even spends time considering it - seriously should not be allowed to be alone near children.

Antiquated advice aside, I would refuse a visit unless your dh is there to host her. The language barrier would be too much for me post partum, I imagine it to be very stressful being unable to speak properly. Obviously, she should never be allowed to be alone with either child!

I think you are underreacting to be honest about the mum handling his penis.

How will you communicate with your boyfriend's mum if your boyfriend is at work and you and her are there together? That in itself sounds very hard on you as you will have just given birth. Your boyfriend needs to be on your side. Is there any way he would ask her not to come? Or is he all about her and not about you?

As an aside, although I know you said you can't speak to her, no conversation about your children's genitals should be awkward no matter who you are speaking to.

I have a DS and no, this isn't something that I've ever considered.

But I think it might be a generational thing as I can recall it being talked about when I was young (my mum and next door neighbour talking about her son - the conversation stuck in my head!) My DM is in her 70s and I THINK (but not certain) that she might even have mentioned it to me in passing at some point when DS was a baby but I obviously just ignored it.

I had premature babies and spent some time in SCBU, including Intensive Care. And I had a range of different nurses. There were some who had lived/qualified overseas and they had a very different approach. Much more hands on and into manual manipulation - markedly different from the British-trained nurses. (This wasn't to do with DS, but to do with me trying to breastfeed tiny premature babies who had been born with no sucking reflex.) They used to grab, squeeze and tweak my nipples - very hands on, and it came as an enormous shock! They were lovely and great nurses, but very different culturally. And I do wonder whether your MIL's insistence is a combination of this hands-on type attitude and the very patriarchal view that the mighty penis and a boy's "maleness" must not be compromised at any point!

Medical advice is to NOT retract the foreskin. There is no need to do this for hygiene or willy development purposes.
The foreskin isn't meant to retract in infants/young boys. The hormones that accompany puberty help break the last connections and then the foreskin is more mobile.
Absolutely leave little willies alone. And don't trust your child wit he anyone who wouldn't!

Firstly. I’m so terribly sorry for your loss.

Secondly - how lovely to be expecting another little one. I pray it’s a (relatively!) easy and simple birth and you get to enjoy being a new mum.

This is such a sensitive subject.

In short. Yes. You must (very very gently) move the foreskin when changing baby boys. Not least to clean thoroughly so he does not become sore.

Anecdotally, I have known four men who were circumcised later because this wasn’t done when they were a baby.

Try not to worry (easier said than done). This should be a time of hope and joy.

Good luck and God bless you all.

Ds1 needed his foreskin removing for medical reason, we did think ds2 would as well but he didn't need to

We were told not to touch the foreskin until they were around 5, which is when ds2 was seen by a specialist as it still wouldn't retract

You are not supposed to mess with it when they are babies

Ds3&4 could both pull there's back by the time they were toddlers with no conversation or help from me. It was their favourite thing to do in the bath from about 18 months , 2 years 😐

Sorry pic didn't attach