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Ukraine Invasion: Part 19

999 replies

MagicFox · 06/04/2022 20:38

Welcome friends, still going

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Igotjelly · 08/04/2022 20:30

@Ijsbear

Statements from some of the better twitterati that 121,000 children have been forcibly taken to Russia and 600,000 people in all.
Probably a really dense question but do we have any idea what the purpose of these forces deportations are?
jgw1 · 08/04/2022 20:34

Probably a really dense question but do we have any idea what the purpose of these forces deportations are?

If Ukraine isn't populated by Ukranians, but instead Russians are imported then it votes to become part of Russia, it would be the will of the people.

Igotjelly · 08/04/2022 20:38

@jgw1

Probably a really dense question but do we have any idea what the purpose of these forces deportations are?

If Ukraine isn't populated by Ukranians, but instead Russians are imported then it votes to become part of Russia, it would be the will of the people.

I don’t mean this as to sound as crass at it does, simply trying to think like the Russians. What’s the benefit of deportation over just killing them? Seeing as they’re killing so many anyway.
Alexandra2001 · 08/04/2022 20:38

Probably a really dense question but do we have any idea what the purpose of these forces deportations are?

To kill them all i would imagine.

TargusEasting · 08/04/2022 20:39

@Alexandra2001
Has Ukraine asked for a UN peace-keeping force recently? Would you ask for one in his position?

Natsku · 08/04/2022 20:40

@Shuuu

If Finland applied to join NATO & Russia do launch an attack of any kind in the process, how likely is it that NATO will defend them? Or how long does NATO membership take? Wouldn’t it be better to not report an application of membership ?
The chief said that Finland would have "political protection" during the process but I'm not entirely sure what that means. The process can take from a few months to a year but it would probably be on the quicker side with Finland. I did think a quiet application would be best but I suppose there's no way it could stay quiet, so better to be open about it and show no fear.
Ijsbear · 08/04/2022 20:41

I think jgw1 is right. Plus Russia is putting an incredible amount of effort into the media war and the sight of tired Ukrainians coming 'home' to Russia and being welcomed with bread and soup and toys is nice for the cameras. I bet they are damn careful who ask for soundbites though.

plus little Ukrainians can be educated about how well they've been saved from their Nazi culture and can grow up to admire Mother Russia.

Alexandra2001 · 08/04/2022 20:44

[quote TargusEasting]@Alexandra2001
Has Ukraine asked for a UN peace-keeping force recently? Would you ask for one in his position?[/quote]
You need to answer PaperTyger that, i replied to his/her idea of sending in one, which i disagree with.

there is no Peace to Keep.

TargusEasting · 08/04/2022 20:45

@Ijsbear
Yes - that's about right I think.

mids2019 · 08/04/2022 20:47

Is the battle for the Donbas going to be it i.e. the 'final battle'? It seems like there are two alternatives here (a) a protracted war of attrition (b) a Ukranian win given their performance and introduction of western weaponry.

If Ukraine wins in some sense what will Russia's response be? Will this lead to the start of an internal regime change as the humiliating defeat dawns on the Russian ruling class? How will Putin react?

If we do have a defeated Russia how do you ensure no rearnament happens?
Will forcible regime change be the only option to prevent this? Obviously the nuclear factor is there in terms of invasion but will sanctions be extended to try and achieve this?

Could we have a scenario of Ukraine pushing into Russian territory particularly Crimea and can Russia defend itself? Will other states take advantage of the very much weakened Russian defence force?

So many questions.....

TargusEasting · 08/04/2022 20:49

Give it a go @mids2019
There are no right or wrong answers and this is mostly a respectful and collegiate thread.

mids2019 · 08/04/2022 20:51

Another thought....The poor performance of the Russian military has shown we have really one superpower in the world currently , the USA. Will the rest of the world accept pax Americana or tacitly support Russia with a geopolitical fear of one dominant military in the world?

Igotjelly · 08/04/2022 20:55

@mids2019

Another thought....The poor performance of the Russian military has shown we have really one superpower in the world currently , the USA. Will the rest of the world accept pax Americana or tacitly support Russia with a geopolitical fear of one dominant military in the world?
I really wouldn’t underestimate China. It’s been known for some time that Russia was ailing as a superpower, really nothing other than their nuclear arsenal keeping the West interested in them. China is a whole different kettle of fish.
TheABC · 08/04/2022 20:56

I think those opposing the USA will cosy up to China. It's modernizing it's military very quickly, plus it's got the financial clout and numbers to make everyone think twice.

If this war has shown us nothing else, it's proved there's more to being a major power than the number of tanks you own.

PaperTyger · 08/04/2022 20:57

Targus.

I would be asking Yes. Because the areas at war ( ridiculous phrase because one side was passive) the areas picked on by the bully have now been left alone so yes I would

PaperTyger · 08/04/2022 20:57

Ask for help especially around the nuclear site's Which can strongly be argued is for everyone safety as they can prove the problems there.

TargusEasting · 08/04/2022 20:58

Is the battle for the Donbas going to be it i.e. the 'final battle'?

No. Not for as long as the Kremlin (which is Putin and his politically aligned) are compos mentis and able to govern. They will regroup, reinvent, rearm and reattack. You will hear lots of words beginning with re over coming weeks with regard to Russian army tactis. 'Re' in Latin means again. The Kremlin psyche is stuck in the past. Like a dog with a bone.

Alexandra2001 · 08/04/2022 21:00

No country on earth spends more than the USA on defence, both absolute and as a % of GDP.

More than Russia China and UK combined.

It is and will continue to be the Worlds best equipped Super Power, thankfully they are on our side!

Alexandra2001 · 08/04/2022 21:02

@PaperTyger How would you protect any peace keeping/Nuclear safety force?
sky and sea?

TargusEasting · 08/04/2022 21:07

The poor performance of the Russian military has shown we have really one superpower in the world currently , the USA. Will the rest of the world accept pax Americana or tacitly support Russia with a geopolitical fear of one dominant military in the world?

I posted some charts earlier which highlighted US military power and US corporate power. Worth a look upthread earlier today (mid-morning I think). There is only one economy that dominates. China is catching up in terms of numbers, but it is nowhere near the size of the US. It is easy to think the US is declining relatively to China, but how is China going to churn out an Elon Musk. China does not allow creative individualism. We are all better for that.

Don't get me wrong. Some people toot for the underdog. Hollywood churns this out to us everyday. America is the Great Satan to many. but the real underdogs are the 75% of the world's population that do not live in free democracies.

ScrollingLeaves · 08/04/2022 21:08

@Ijsbear

Statements from some of the better twitterati that 121,000 children have been forcibly taken to Russia and 600,000 people in all.

Do you know if that would be children separated from their parents? Or, orphans? It doesn’t bear thinking about. Where would they take them. I wish people tracking the satellite cameras could follow all trucks and buses.

TargusEasting · 08/04/2022 21:10

If we do have a defeated Russia how do you ensure no rearnament happens?

We can't.

PaperTyger · 08/04/2022 21:11

In some ways this battle has been so absurd and strange one wonders if it's not just Been an exercise to drag USA out. See what the tech is..what it can offer like the drones we here shot, the UK star streakers etc.

It's so odd!

Igot, loosing investment in Russia means little but many people would be taking a massive hit loosing investment in China! It's a slice of many every day people's investment.

Ijsbear · 08/04/2022 21:12

@mids2019

my own views, fwtarw (being untrained in military or long term consequence-forecasting)

If Ukraine wins in some sense what will Russia's response be? Will this lead to the start of an internal regime change as the humiliating defeat dawns on the Russian ruling class? How will Putin react?

Ukraine has already partially won as kyiv is free. Russia's response is to up the savagery and increase the massive media control in its own country. Long term that's going to be a huge problem for the West, unless the next leader chooses to undo the state stranglehold on the media, because more generations will grow up hating the West. The way Putin is handling this seems worse than even Stalin's media control.

The ruling class already know it's not going to original plan. I suspect they are waiting and seeing, but not planning any coup. Putin's control is too great.

What will he do? This is the wild card. I don't think the nuclear option is impossible, but it's not that likely either. He's a survivor. More likely he will try to regroup, look to China and India, Pakistan and Brazil and try to seduce them enough to get the military and other parts that the West will no longer supply. Cyber attacks. Much, much more effort to increasing the political dissension between states.

Possibly trying to take over Hungary indirectly. This seems a real possibility.

If we do have a defeated Russia how do you ensure no rearnament happens?

I don't think you can but he'll struggle to get any parts from the West and those parts are essential to a modern war machine. Rearmament will take time. What he may do is try to move away from a conscript army that's poorly trained to a flexible, well trained and well paid army.

Will forcible regime change be the only option to prevent this?Obviously the nuclear factor is there in terms of invasion but will sanctions be extended to try and achieve this?

I don't see how the West can arrange a regime change and I don't think it should. Russia is still a sovereign nation and just as we want them to respect Ukraine, the fact they are still sovereign should also be respected.

Could we have a scenario of Ukraine pushing into Russian territory particularly Crimea and can Russia defend itself? Will other states take advantage of the very much weakened Russian defence force?

Best case as far as I can see is that Ukraine pushes Russia right back to her own borders but actually, leaves Crimea in Russian hands. It was only given to Ukraine in living memory and in many ways it seems like it should be Russian. The Crim tartars have had a very rough deal though.

Invading Russia would be the worst idea ever. Half the world is on Ukraine's side now. If Ukraine went into Russia all the sympathy would evaporate. Plus Ukraine needs to rebuild its shattered cities and economy. Plus there are a lot more Russian soldiers than Ukrainians. Some of them do not want to be in war with Ukraine, but if their own country is invaded - well, they'll react just as Ukraine has. With absolute fury and determination. Bad idea to invade!

Will other states take advantage of a weakened Russia? Economically yes. Politically, economically and militarily Russia has weakened itself badly and China will be more than glad to encourage closer ties because Russia will be very much the junior partner in that relationship. The weaker they are, the less clout they'll have.

The poor performance of the Russian military has shown we have really one superpower in the world currently , the USA. Will the rest of the world accept pax Americana or tacitly support Russia with a geopolitical fear of one dominant military in the world?

Um, China is another superpower. It'll be greater than the USA in the coming decades.

The USA has thrown its weight around heavily in the last decades, in some wars it had no business being involved in (eg Iraq 2). It's behaved with arrogance and alienated many nations, plus Trump made it partially into a laughing stock and partially into someone whose word you can't trust (pulling out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership for example.

America is still a very great nation but it isn't the only one. But Russia has become at best 2nd or 3rd rate through the internal parasitism of the oligarchs and this war and it's hard to see how it can regain any weight in the world in the near or long term. Their poor military performance spells opportunity to quite a few people waiting in the wings, I suspect.

PaperTyger · 08/04/2022 21:14

We can't control what they do but we can get peace keepers into Ukraine.

We could call them barbers! Gardeners!.
Who cares.... Putin doesn't.

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