If there was a general election tomorrow and you were an ordinary woman on an average wage..

[Kreuzberg]

Who would you really vote for ? A party wishy washy on self ID and other trans issues with a gobby brash deputy leader who puts her foot in it and a lacking in charisma but well meaning leader or a party that implemented austerity, savage cuts to all public services, oversaw the deaths of 150,000, deceitful, pork barrel politics, corrupt, but with a teflon coated populist leader, plummy voiced slick mps and a less wishy washy stance on self ID (although not necessarily to be trusted)
What is most important to women earning £30,000 who are going to be hugely affected by the spiralling cost of living, struggling to heat their homes, feed their kids ? Issues very much the result of conservative policies like brexit, austerity etc or trans issues ?
I'm not pro self ID but not cat in hells chance I'd ever vote tory either. Their past record is not erased just because they say they know what a woman is. I'm addressing this to average earners too as they are on the front line.

The average woman does not earn £30k, the majority of women do not earn that amount!

I cannot for the life of me understand why, after 12 years of this miserable, corrupt so-called government, why anyone could vote for them.

Posters quoting the last Labour government, totally ignoring the last 12 years of, well what have we got.. fuck all apart from a country vastly worse off.

Why? Because Keir Starmer dared to tread very carefully so as to respect trans folks. An issue which isn't straightforward even in my own home.

The idea that Labour "doesn't know what a woman is"... seriously.

Labour has done far more to support women in work, women with families than any of this corrupt shower.

Sure, use this single issue to underpin your Tory voting, but own that for what it truly is.

@AhNowTed

I cannot for the life of me understand why, after 12 years of this miserable, corrupt so-called government, why anyone could vote for them.

Posters quoting the last Labour government, totally ignoring the last 12 years of, well what have we got.. fuck all apart from a country vastly worse off.

Why? Because Keir Starmer dared to tread very carefully so as to respect trans folks. An issue which isn't straightforward even in my own home.

The idea that Labour "doesn't know what a woman is"... seriously.

Labour has done far more to support women in work, women with families than any of this corrupt shower.

Sure, use this single issue to underpin your Tory voting, but own that for what it truly is.

It’s fine if you don’t get it but re your last line no I don’t accept people get to define why someone votes how they do.

It is important to me, fundamental in fact. I’m not particularly wedded to any party and always decide at each election. I don’t need to convince other people how to vote, it’s up to them, but if I find it important (probably due to education and background) then I do.

@MarshaBradyo

"but if I find it important (probably due to education and background) then I do."

Would you care to elaborate?

Education... are you seriously going down that road?

[quote AhNowTed]@MarshaBradyo

"but if I find it important (probably due to education and background) then I do."

Would you care to elaborate?

Education... are you seriously going down that road?[/quote]
Eh?
What’s wrong with that road

I’m aware we don’t all feel the same about these issues and that I too am a product of my background.

I prefer to allow people freedom to think differently and vote accordingly rather than be dogmatic about how people should. Like I say it’s up to them. If the path has led them to draw different conclusions it’s understandable and I wouldn’t berate anyone.

Anyone but Labour

Why ? What policies don’t you like ?

@AhNowTed Keir Starmer dared to tread very carefully so as to respect trans folks.
Oh well as long as that needs met, fuck everything else?

I am of the Left, but feel so betrayed by the Left that it’s been like a bereavement in the last two years. For me, respect and safeguarding for women are fundamental. Nandy, Creasy et al, in my view, show no respect for women as a separate class and I don’t trust them as a result. I also no longer believe in the narrative ‘but Labour is the party that will look after women’. (So long as we all wait, right? I’ve been waiting years for a Labour woman leader, how’s that working out for me?) What I have learned in the last couple of years is to change my mind, to listen to other points of view, to stop believing blindly that all virtue resides on the left. My ideal would actually be PR and a coalition government because I want to see politicians working with each other across the aisle - I can’t bear the dog fight of our Parliament (and can’t bear the fact we’re paying millions to replicate it). And so I also challenge the binary narrative being set up here - that if I’m not voting Labour I’m somehow letting oppressed people down. I don’t believe that, either.

[quote MichelleScarn]**@AhNowTed* Keir Starmer dared to tread very carefully so as to respect trans folks.*
Oh well as long as that needs met, fuck everything else?[/quote]

Where did I ever say that.

Don't put words in my mouth.

Whoever replies to the question "What is a woman?" with the answer: "Adult human female".

So I'm voting Tory even though I've previously been left wing. I'm a single issue voter now. If woman becomes something men can be it could take a long time to sort out.

I don't get it.

What has Keir Starmer said that is so repugnant?

As far as I can see, he respects folk's struggle with gender ID. So do I.

To quote:

“LGBT+ people still face discrimination in the workplace, hate crime continues to rise, trans people are one of the most discriminated groups in our society,” he said.
“Labour knows how much work there is to do. We will always stand as an ally with the LGBT+ community in the fight for true equality.
“We’re campaigning to ensure conversion therapy is banned once and for all, and we’re committed to updating the GRA to introduce self-declaration for trans people.”
I am with him on this.

Where I am definitely not on board is women being re-classed as "people with a cervix", and I vehemently disagree with biological males competing in female sports.

He has said no different.

@jesusmaryjosephandtheweedonkey

After the covid shit show and The refusal to answer the woman/ penis question. I'm not voting for anyone anymore

Same here and I never thought I would say it. Just hoping that Labour will wake up and realise how many votes they potentially stand to lose

Keir Starmer needs to stop waffling.

Article in todays Guardian on sex and gender in sport is good. Keir should read it and try to be as clear.

Arguing for sex-based categories in sports such as swimming and cycling is not bigotry. It’s fairness

I wouldn't even consider the partys stance on trans issues. There are other things I consider more important. I don't know the major parties thoughts on this issue. I know I won't be voting tory (never have never will)

There are a whole raft of compromises before picking a party.

I will vote for the local person who may stand a chance of keeping the Tories out. As I always have, and mainly failed.

That will be Lib Dem.

Surely if you disagree with a parties stance on something you start a debate and discussion on it generally, lobby and try to persuade them to your view? You don't allow poverty to run riot, public services to be eroded, accept lying as the norm (maybe they are lying on their view on your issue?) And not hope for better than what we've been subject to for 12 years?

My personal situation has always been better under a labour government. I’m a low earning single parent. At this stage finances outweigh all the weird gender things. I wasn’t even aware of them except on this site and my children at secondary school .

Labour. They might not know what a woman is, but the conservatives don't seem to know what a human being is.

I am that voter. I'd love to vote SNP but sadly DH is holding firm on not relocating to Scotland. I live in an awful Tory stronghold so I doubt my vote will make a difference, but on the off chance it does. I will vote Labour.

Surely if you disagree with a parties stance on something you start a debate and discussion on it generally, lobby and try to persuade them to your view?

Women have been trying this for around 4 years now. Many have been expelled from the party. Rosie Duffield MP has been excluded from Labour Women's Conference for the past two years. The labour leadership is still blanking groups such as Labour Women's Declaration and Lesbian Labour who have been requesting a discussion for years. They repeatedly call WPUK a 'hate group'.

This is what happens when women hold a fringe meeting at labour conference (twitter thread of videos):

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1176207467526676485

Many of those banging on windows and obstructing exits are conference delegates. There was no condemnation of this behaviour from the conference platform.

This is the atmosphere in which we are trying to have a debate and discussion with labour. It's extremely intimidating and has been going on for a long time.

@AhNowTed

I don't get it.

What has Keir Starmer said that is so repugnant?

As far as I can see, he respects folk's struggle with gender ID. So do I.

To quote:

“LGBT+ people still face discrimination in the workplace, hate crime continues to rise, trans people are one of the most discriminated groups in our society,” he said.
“Labour knows how much work there is to do. We will always stand as an ally with the LGBT+ community in the fight for true equality.
“We’re campaigning to ensure conversion therapy is banned once and for all, and we’re committed to updating the GRA to introduce self-declaration for trans people.”
I am with him on this.

Where I am definitely not on board is women being re-classed as "people with a cervix", and I vehemently disagree with biological males competing in female sports.

He has said no different.

You do know that Starmer has also said that he understands single sex spaces are important? How do you think single sex spaces co-exist with the right to self-id? I haven't seen anything quoting Starmer (or anyone else in Labour who's pushing both sides of the argument at once) saying HOW they will reconcile this, what ACTUAL measures they would bring in if they were in government.

That makes me feel that they don't have any policies on this, that they cannot reconcile both sides, or that they're only paying lip service to one side while intending to fully support the other. It also makes me feel that I can't trust them.

Why are Labour doing this to themselves? If they believe women don't exist as a sex class, they should come out & say so - & let the voters make up their minds. Alternatively, if they support women's rights, they should say that - & again, let the voters decide whom to support. Sitting on the fence is doing nobody any favours. And if they've got the big answer which seems to elude everyone else, why haven't they revealed it & cut short the argument, especially when it's hurting them more than the Conservatives?

It's like Brexit. Some of us were willing the Labour Party to come out as Remain, so that there was a straight choice & some real Opposition. I believe it could've made a big difference.

I blame Labour for losing the votes of so many women (& men) over the last few years & making it so difficult to start, perhaps, improving things in this country. Although bad things happen under Labour governments, too, you know.

Jane a caller on LBC who asked JRM what is a woman and can women have penises.

I agree with her response below.

Jane said: 'Quite frankly, I'm really mortified because Jacob Rees-Mogg represents everything that I loathe.

'But if the Labour Party, the Lib Dems and the Greens don't wake up, smell our fury and respect my sex we're going to have a Tory government for the foreseeable future.

'I always vote. I cannot, and I will not, vote for any politician who expects me to suspend belief and does not respect my sex.'

Jane admitted it was a 'bizarre time' when she found herself in agreement with Mr Rees Mogg.

'But we're meant to believe six impossible things before breakfast at the moment,' she said.

I cannot comprehend any woman could believe she’d be better served by arch Catholic, hard line anti abortionist JRM than Keir Starmer. That really is believing an impossible thing.

Sure, use this single issue to underpin your Tory voting, but own that for what it truly is.

This

I feel like these threads are started by people who deliberately want to push this agenda.

I'm for trans rights and women's rights. I believe it is a complicated issue and politicians have to tread a very fine line. I feel that you could have a debate about this with Keir Starmer and your opinion would be considered. Boris Johnson is just a braying sack of flaccid potatoes and the damage he has done to this country is immense. I will vote whoever has a chance of getting the Tories out.