Ukraine Invasion Part 18

[Ijsbear]

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

I’ve done a good deal of training around supporting those with trauma (generally either race based trauma or from rape/sexual assault) as part of my work and the thing lots of people seem to fail to grasp is that once the immediate relief of being safe wears off these people will be left with deep psychological scars. Many are likely to suffer from significant mental health issues, some of which may not manifest themselves for many years. There is no short term fix, this is something these people will be processing and dealing with for the rest of their lives. It absolutely must not be underestimated the level of impact that living with someone/supporting someone with that level of trauma can have on a person. It’s absolutely wonderful that people are opening their homes to refugees but they absolutely need to be equipped with the skills not only to support the people they are fostering but also to protect themselves and their families.

@RedToothBrush interesting what you are saying about the homes for refugees scheme. Are you in south manchester by any chance ? I'm in a whatsapp group for potential hosts, many of the members are in that area - altrincham etc (I'm the other side of the city in a much less affluent part) and I agree that a majority seem to be well off professionals.

I'm seeing lots of FB posts along the lines of, "Room available for women and children. We can fit this many mattresses in it. Happy to take unaccompanied children too."

Which is great. But a room crammed with as many mattresses as will fit is fine for a few days, but not for months and years. Particularly when, if the hosting relationship breaks down, there seems to be no escape route. Not to mention the potential safeguarding disaster of a woman +/- children, or children alone, being utterly dependant on their host, and unable to say no.

@Ijsbear

I don't think that hating a whole country helps. Admittedly I could make an exception for Wagner mercs, and Putin himself.

Reading all the horrific accounts has got to me, I was more sympathetic to the Russian soldiers at the start for the same reasons as you. They don't all want to be there. But it's hard to read about atrocities and not feel anger towards those who committed them.

Potential sponsors are dbs checked. The council is also inspecting peoples' homes and are apparently fairly strict regarding things like room occupancy/ age and gender of people sharing. Not sure if this is sufficient. Hate to say it but the £260 incentive may have spurred people on to apply. One lady mentioned that she'd struggle to feed her potential guests but hoped the government aid would help. She was advised by several posters that she probably wasn't a suitable candidate. Huge minefield...

Anything by Dan Hughes has my vote. I read his books during my adoption training.

@BreadInCaptivity I hope the West continues to support Ukraine.

I agree that the refugees are going to need a lot of specialist support for their trauma and I hope the government steps up and provides it.

My friend showed me videos of rockets in Odesa last night...

@RedToothBrush

“www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/03/ukraine-apparent-war-crimes-russia-controlled-areas
Ukraine: Apparent War Crimes in Russia-Controlled Areas
Summary Executions, Other Grave Abuses by Russian Forces

Not Irpin, Hostomel or Bucha in many cases in this article.

Irpin, Hostomel and Bucha will be tip of the iceberg. The next Srebrenica has happened i fear and its what I've been worried about for a while. The West of Kyiv isn't on the scale of Srebrenica... Ukraine knew thats what the invasion“

Thank you, I have read that now. In the following description, amidst all the foul acts reported, it mentions ”Another soldier intervened to prevent the other soldier from killing them.”

It has been mentioned on these threads that none of us knows the dreadful things we too
might do if we were in the position that these Russian soldiers have been put in. I am equally interested to know what it is that makes some soldiers not commit terrible crimes when they are going on all around. There were resisters at Mai Lai too. In this case the soldier not only did not do it too but stopped the other one from murder.

A 60-year-old man told Human Rights Watch that on March 4, a Russian soldier threatened to summarily execute him and his son in Zabuchchya, a village northwest of Kyiv, after searching their home and finding a hunting rifle and gasoline in the backyard. Another soldier intervened to prevent the other soldier from killing them, the man said. His daughter corroborated his account in a separate interview.

[quote Kreuzberg]@RedToothBrush interesting what you are saying about the homes for refugees scheme. Are you in south manchester by any chance ? I'm in a whatsapp group for potential hosts, many of the members are in that area - altrincham etc (I'm the other side of the city in a much less affluent part) and I agree that a majority seem to be well off professionals.[/quote]
Not that exact area but not dissimilar. Its the pattern I thought would happen simply because of who has the space to host and who doesn't.

And of course a large number are are in nice suburbs or semi rural areas, not town centres or city centres. When the scheme was announced it was made clear by the refugee charities that refugees had struggled more outside cities. Where I live has a good community but it also can be isolating if you aren't part of that or don't understand it. Its going to take a considerable amount of input from hosts to compensate for that in less central areas and if they are professionals they often have less time. Theres going to be tension later down the line when Ukrainians move from these areas to somewhere more permanent and cheaper. There won't be the same community there unless you have large numbers moving to the same places... (nice backlash against the well meaning middle class who took in people and then 'dump' them on poorer communities who already have higher unmet social needs ready to brew and be exploited by certain politicians... Indeed the weaponisation of refugees is a known Russian policy choice... )

Its difficult to know what to do because the UK absolutely should be taking refugees and sharing the load. However the reality in being at the edge of Europe is also that less people will get this far and our cost of living as a percentage of income is higher than many other places in Europe. At least in Poland you have many people in the same place with a shared experience who can support each other perhaps spontaneously. Each situation has its own challenges from the dynamic of too many / too few people.

I just don't think we are adequately identifying the challenges ahead here. There is a really dismissive and head in the sand approach going on from people volunteering. I don't know that enough are being actively proactive and seriously considering this and what they need to be doing to support it.

[quote HappyWinter]@BreadInCaptivity I hope the West continues to support Ukraine.

I agree that the refugees are going to need a lot of specialist support for their trauma and I hope the government steps up and provides it.[/quote]
Of course they won’t, they can’t even provide adequate mental health care for the existing population.

Experience of trauma too and agreed that a lot of help will be needed. I fear it's going to be informal knowledge spread around though. The UK services are more than borked as it is with not enough even skeletal services.

@RedToothBrush Its difficult to know what to do because the UK absolutely should be taking refugees and sharing the load. However the reality in being at the edge of Europe is also that less people will get this far and our cost of living as a percentage of income is higher than many other places in Europe. At least in Poland you have many people in the same place with a shared experience who can support each other perhaps spontaneously. Each situation has its own challenges from the dynamic of too many / too few people.

I just don't think we are adequately identifying the challenges ahead here. There is a really dismissive and head in the sand approach going on from people volunteering. I don't know that enough are being actively proactive and seriously considering

Do you think that may be why the U.K. government is dragging its heels?

Pmk, been off the ‘net for a few days. It’s too much to hope that the west uses this as a wake up call, to remember its heritage of thought about ethics and women’s rights, to remember what it all means: why it existed, and why pushing aggressive exploitation to pursue increasing the wealth of the richest isn’t everything.

@HappyWinter I hope I am wrong but I think there's a very real chance that hosts will have very little support post placement. I have seen charities asking for home support volunteers to make home visits (to support the hosts) which is one thing but there is no infrastructure, no resources to tap into if it's not all going swimmingly. I also suspect many hosts will end up sharing their homes a good deal longer than the intended 6 months.

I think the chances of the West using this as any sort of wake up call are minimal. Unfortunately history is littered with examples of humans doing unspeakable things to each other and genocide is far less uncommon than it should be. We’ve never learned before so can’t see it happening now.

I am equally interested to know what it is that makes some soldiers not commit terrible crimes when they are going on all around

Suspect it's a mix of love while growing up, not being brutalized in training and sheer inborn personality. Not new news, but I don't think the absolute crucial necessity of a reasonable start in life can ever be underestimated. A young person who is shown empathy grows up to have empathy for others and that will come out in the strangest and most challenging of times.

^ I’m fairly sure that’s the general conclusion drawn by students of the Nazis. Googling would probably bring up hordes of references. Culture and law is the short answer. Europe tried to build something different based on ethical values and economic life for everyone once, after the world wars showed the extent of human brutality then.

From Kyiv independent, so Ukranian figures:

Armed Forces: 18,000 Russian soldiers killed since Feb. 24.

According to Ukraine’s Armed Forces, Russia had lost 644 tanks, 1,830 armored fighting vehicles, 325 artillery pieces, 105 multiple rocket launchers, 54 air-to-surface missiles, 143 planes, 134 helicopters, 7 ships, 89 drones, and 4 tactical ballistic missile systems.

@RedToothBrush do you realise that you come across as sneery and judgmental on others who have chosen to host Ukrainian guests? Why is that?

@Hillsmakeyoustrong

Agree *@RedToothBrush*. During the adoption process (as an adoptive parent) we were constantly beaten around the head with stories of family breakdowns due to the child's trauma and the adopter's inability to cope. I felt quite patronised at the time but it made us very sober about putting ourselves forward for the right child (ended up children) which meant we had to say no when children were presented to us. It was hideous. My point is that both head and heart need to engage in emotive situations. All the best intentions in the world will not make up for being out of your depth.

I thought this was worth quoting for DFOD. Especially the part about “I felt patronised at the time but”. I work with disadvantaged teens - hell I was one once - and there are crossover issues I recognise.

Agree don’t think flagging the fact that most average people will be woefully unequipped to deal with the trauma isn’t being sherry and judgemental, it’s being realistic.

Sneery*

@Kreuzberg

Potential sponsors are dbs checked. The council is also inspecting peoples' homes and are apparently fairly strict regarding things like room occupancy/ age and gender of people sharing. Not sure if this is sufficient. Hate to say it but the £260 incentive may have spurred people on to apply. One lady mentioned that she'd struggle to feed her potential guests but hoped the government aid would help. She was advised by several posters that she probably wasn't a suitable candidate. Huge minefield...

Yeah I think the money given is an added issue because its not a given what that goes towards. Its actually supposed to be for living expenses but not food. The refugee then gets benefits I believe.

How does this work in practice with a shared kitchen? Are some hosts going to be doing things like cooking for everyone (without thought of affordability) and then charge back for food? Or if people cook separately you've got tension for space / time (as anyone who has ever lived in shared accommodation knows).

But how can a refugee family save for a deposit to move out / transport or a car...? Getting a job is going to be hard enough. A mother with kids is going to be the usual model - so one parent families who may need childcare...

People need to be giving serious thought to how their gas/electric bills will go up. What do they intend to do about food and clothing? (and things like school uniform). How do they think they can support people to get a job and what kind of job. Ukrainian middle class professionals might find barriers not only about language but also verifying skills and equivalency in qualifications.

I've seen no discussion about this type of thing where I am.

The only thing Ive seen is a conversation about bank accounts which was made to look easy and then when a problem was raised about it, it was actively ignored. (Because someone has Google and posted a link to look clever but couldn't be arsed following up on how it wasn't as straightforward in practice). Everything else is kind of being glossed over. Nice talk about language lessons and a community meeting once a week for Ukrainians. But not the boring more essential stuff.

Getting your benefits requires you to have some sort of account. If there is a problem or delay in getting this sort of thing done, then what? Who bails out in the meantime? How long will it take to resolve? Whose department etc etc. Do you as a host have the time to go out of your way to help someone who doesn't speak English resolve this?

There is significant beaucracy involved in the visa stage, which is being flagged as problematic. But it doesn't stop once youve got the visa. There is another whole pile of forms to fill.

There is a very real flippancy about it. I do wish that the media would start talking about these a lot more loudly. I suspect they will in a few weeks after there is a big ruckus about it. And theres still all these visa issues and safeguarding issues which will dominant conversations in the interim and for sometime, because once people are here the expectation will be that they should just be 'getting on with it'.

Atm they seem to be working off emotion and not practicality.