Ukraine Invasion Part 18

[Ijsbear]

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

Agree @Igotjelly. We owe it to Ukraine now on a human level and we owe it to ourselves to safeguard our future.

"Less clear is why Schröder’s course of expanding economic ties with Russia was broadly continued by his successor, Angela Merkel, and whether she did so purely out of passivity or to her political advantage."

voices have been growing louder in criticising her sidelining of the foreign policy and security experts who warned her against seeing Russia as a reliable partner in trade.

To Nato’s great surprise, France and Germany in 2008 blocked a Membership Action Plan for Georgia, warning that Russia would interpret it as an existential threat. But four months later, Russia invaded Georgia anyway. In 2014-2015, when the US wanted to arm Ukraine over Russia’s annexation of Crimea, Merkel

“But in the shadow of such seeming diplomatic successes, Russia continued to build up its military threat.”

There are also fresh questions over Merkel’s unwavering support for the Nord Stream project, whose first pipeline she ceremonially unveiled in 2011. “With Nord Stream, it is now apparent that Germany was simply tricked by the Russian side: this was always a political and not a commercial project,” said Kiesewetter. “Germany never addressed the European and the security dimension of the project.”

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/05/germany-angela-merkel-power-to-vladimir-putin-russia

I'm similar to your DM & DH @Igotjelly in that I don't talk to anyone about it, but for me it's because I'd either get upset or angry. I'm raising money to help but I can't talk about it.

As awful as it sounds I have to consciously not think about it read about children that are effected because I just can't cope with it.

@Ijsbear how are your visitors settling in? I was going to ask on the last thread but it filled up before I had chance. Also thank you for the new thread

Germany’s stubborn insistence on engaging with the Russian leader in the face of his sustained aggression (a catalog of misdeeds ranging from the invasion of Georgia to assassinations of enemies abroad and war crimes in Syria) was nothing short of a catastrophic blunder, one that will earn Merkel a place in the pantheon of political naiveté alongside Neville Chamberlain

Slowly but surely, it’s begun to dawn on Germans that Merkel’s soft-shoe approach to Russia — which reached its zenith with the 2015 decision to green light the Nord Stream 2 pipeline despite Russia’s annexation of Crimea and its role in the separatist war in eastern Ukraine — didn’t just open the door for Putin to go further, it effectively encouraged him to do so.

Though less responsible than either Merkel’s Christian Democrats or the Social Democrats for the policies that led up to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine, the smaller parties in Germany’s ruling coalition — the liberal Free Democrats and the Greens — haven’t exactly covered themselves in glory either.

www.politico.eu/article/putin-merkel-germany-scholz-foreign-policy-ukraine-war-invasion-nord-stream-2/

@EsmaCannonball

I mentioned yesterday that the Russians mined a confectionery factory in Bucha and poisoned the products. I've also seen a story today about an entire herd of cows being machine-gunned and read other stories about food warehouses, crop silos and farm equipment being deliberately destroyed. Add in the attacks on the oil depots, and it's clear that the Russians are slashing and burning as they retreat in preparation for their refreshed offensive.

Whilst I absolutely don’t rule out a renewed offensive there is part of me that wonders if they’re doing out of nothing other than pure spite.

Considering how badly planned their initial invasion appears to be I struggle to accept that their retreat would be any more organised.

@EsmaCannonball

I mentioned yesterday that the Russians mined a confectionery factory in Bucha and poisoned the products. I've also seen a story today about an entire herd of cows being machine-gunned and read other stories about food warehouses, crop silos and farm equipment being deliberately destroyed. Add in the attacks on the oil depots, and it's clear that the Russians are slashing and burning as they retreat in preparation for their refreshed offensive.

Why are those fighter planes not being sent over, while this withdrawal (it's clearly not a retreat) is happening?

Surely we cannot let Ukraine suffer a second round of this murder.

@ChimChimeny They are starting to settle a little bit. We've got them registered and they managed to open an on line bank account the next day (Bunq bank here is reducing the level of validation for Ukranians).

Turns out that he is 30 today, so it was a mad dash to the bakery to get him a cake and the bakery owner printed out a Uk flag and piped '30' onto it. We had a nice chat over it though the conversation touched on how badly Eindhoven was bombed in the war which is all a bit raw at the moment. But their families have relocated from middle-east Ukraine to the west of it so they are much safer.

Lovely people. The tiny little dog sits on his lap under his jumper. Every so often the dog barks and you remember he's there =)

There were quite a few people on these threads who'd taken in refugees, I hope they are all settling in ....

@PaperTyger

"Less clear is why Schröder’s course of expanding economic ties with Russia was broadly continued by his successor, Angela Merkel, and whether she did so purely out of passivity or to her political advantage."

There are plenty of politicians (across the world, not just Germany) who I feel need to be answering questions once all this is over….

Angela Merkel is one of them..

www.politico.eu/article/putin-merkel-germany-scholz-foreign-policy-ukraine-war-invasion-nord-stream-2/

www.wsj.com/articles/vladimir-putins-20-year-march-to-war-in-ukraineand-how-the-west-mishandled-it-11648826461
Vladimir Putin’s 20-Year March to War in Ukraine—and How the West Mishandled It
Washington and the EU vacillated between engagement and deterrence, as the Russian leader became more isolated and more obsessed

This is a fabulous article.

Eastern Europe was not a nice place to live in you didn't obey authority...

my companion says that in East Germany people were very careful on the street and didn't meet each others' eyes. They kept themselves colourless. Once they got home they'd take their overcoats off and their personalities would emerge from hiding too, because they were safe then (mostly).

Turns out that he is 30 today, so it was a mad dash to the bakery to get him a cake and the bakery owner printed out a Uk flag

geh. I meant Ukranian flag on his cake! Not Uk!

RedToothBrush Sat 02-Apr-22 15:24:09

Thats spine chilling and absooluty horrendous.

I am in constant headshaking feelings of despair at the pointless futility of this " invasion" since it started - each new detail brings more despair.

How can Russia ever make this up to Ukraine. Personally I would like PUTIN and his cronies and families who support him to be working themselves - phsycially in a chain gang to re build Ukraine.

Pretty Bird what stunning cats - are they siamese?

Question.....

Do we have to consider the make up of the 5 permanent members of the UN security council?

The permanent members are China, Russia, UK, US and France.

It would seem difficult in the future of Putin remains in power for the security council to fulfil its charter. The leaders of the member ship counties would find it problematic to meet (in NY?). For future global security do we need a new body?

Red that article is behind a pay wall.

Huge mistakes made all around - we really cant let this happen again, no one can be allowed to do this.

Mids it has been argued that Russia was very different to when the Un was set up and its perm membership should be reviwed.

we really cant let this happen again, no one can be allowed to do this.

allowed by whom?

There isn't one global peacekeeping force. Militarily the UN is a joke since the death of Dag Hammarskjöld, though better to have it than not simply for some sort of global talking shop.

Who is "we"? The west? We can't and shouldnt impose leadership on the whole world. Colonialism has gone out of fashion. The legacy lives on and it's a bad one. China? They are doing the best they can to influence the world but their values are different. Africa isn't an option at the moment. South America may gain in global weight one day but it's not there either at the moment.

There is no global government who can stop this happening.

@PaperTyger

Red that article is behind a pay wall.

Huge mistakes made all around - we really cant let this happen again, no one can be allowed to do this.

I quoted it. Quotes came up before the link.

Interesting to see the CIA had intel on Hostomel airport

@RedToothBrush

www.wsj.com/articles/vladimir-putins-20-year-march-to-war-in-ukraineand-how-the-west-mishandled-it-11648826461
“Vladimir Putin’s 20-Year March to War in Ukraine—and How the West Mishandled It
Washington and the EU vacillated between engagement and deterrence, as the Russian leader became more isolated and more obsessed”

This is a fabulous article.
Thank you very much. It is.
Do you think that if just prior to the invasion Zelensky had agreed to say Ukraine would give up wanting to join NATO, that would have meant Putin not going ahead? Or do you think Putin was really hell bent regardless?

Do you think that if just prior to the invasion Zelensky had agreed to say Ukraine would give up wanting to join NATO, that would have meant Putin not going ahead? Or do you think Putin was really hell bent regardless?

With 100k plus troops on or very near the border…..he would have invaded regardless.

Olga Rudenko (Kyiv Independent journalist) on Twitter:

My friend is writing: "My husband's friend, a doctor from Zaporizhzhia, says a group of girls from Mariupol was admitted to their hospital. The oldest one is 10 years old. They have recto-vaginal tears."

We are often told (whether people listen is another matter) that no parliament can bind it's successors. Which is almost a defining characteristic of a sovereign nation compared to a golf club.

So what is the path for the UN to change the composition of the permanent members of the security council ?

(Hint: The wrong answer will see what's happening in Ukraine look like a Club 18-30 holiday compared to what will happen when the UN ha an existential crisis and ceases to be ...)

Whilst I absolutely don’t rule out a renewed offensive there is part of me that wonders if they’re doing out of nothing other than pure spite.

They are leaving scorched earth in their wake. Fucking bastards.

@EsmaCannonball

Olga Rudenko (Kyiv Independent journalist) on Twitter:

My friend is writing: "My husband's friend, a doctor from Zaporizhzhia, says a group of girls from Mariupol was admitted to their hospital. The oldest one is 10 years old. They have recto-vaginal tears."

Holy fuck that doesn’t even bear thinking about. These children will never recover emotionally never mind physically.

Do you think that if just prior to the invasion Zelensky had agreed to say Ukraine would give up wanting to join NATO, that would have meant Putin not going ahead? Or do you think Putin was really hell bent regardless?

I have been thinking about this in the context of the comments the Ukrainian Ambassador to the UK made I keep thinking there was something going on there. I think Zelensky took a gamble and it didn't pay off. I don't think Putin would have invaded had Zelensky stated that Ukraine will give up the NATO membership for a more neutral position. , Then again I didn't think Putin would invade at all and I was wrong.