Ukraine Invasion Part 18

[Ijsbear]

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

True re expending capital in Iraq but we are notinvading Ukraine.

Zelensky doesn't fear us going in for regime changes.

So it's a little lots different. If we went in its only to defend Ukraine and protect people.

Yes yes, Ukraine situation very different from Iraq and Syria.

We're being begged by the Ukrainian govt to intervene as much in as we're willing to under their direction.

Of course Russia still attempts to spin this as UK/Western imperial adventures.

But Russia is also spinning its own atrocities as committed by the victims and appears to be stating it doesn't believe in Ukraine having statehood. So Russia's mendacity on this is clear to anyone not being spammed out of their brain by Russbots.

Honestly?

We need to intervene, maybe with Poland and other Baltic states who are sick of putins shit.

Even without the US, it's obvious the Russian army are a pile of crap tactically. They will be defeated fairly quickly. Would Russia invade us in retaliation? Maybe but probably not.

@Ijsbear

Agreed! They have been and are superhuman.

They’re not superhuman though. They’re just humans responding to unimaginable amounts of pressure and fear.

It’s probably nice for us to be able to describe them as “superhuman” because it helps “other” them a little bit, even if it comes from a place of admiration.

(I know, I know, I’m being overly sensitive and pedantic here - but words matter, how we frame things matters … and also the last couple of days have really gotten to me).

Yes they are human and they are fighting to not be taken over by that midget, bloated, abhorrent TURD

my grandfather fought in WW2 and ended up a POW. I liken Ukrainians with him. He fought back and survived, just. He died young through illness from his torture.

What did he go through that for? To be where we are now watching history repeat itself. Fuck that

I know they aren't really. But I truly believe their determination, training, intelligence, courage, endurance and again determination are at the far end of the scale of courage.

It's got to me too. Probably need to get some distance.

Lj. That's what got my grandfather through his POW days.

Modern life we really don't have a clue what was endured and the Ukrainians are enduring it now. My grandfather fought for freedom. We must not forget we have been here before, we are in it again and we must support Ukraine now. Otherwise why did all those in WW2 suffer. For this? To stand back and impose sanctions that don't work? We must act, we cannot kick the can down the road for our children and grandchildren to pick up the pieces.

I completely agree @TiddyTidTwo

Otherwise why did all those in WW2 suffer. For this?

Was talking with two older people over the weekend who are in shock and disbelief about what is happening again in Europe. One, who was a WW2 child, was remembering a friend who died in bombing only a few houses away. She was saying 'what life might she have had?' and 'it could have been me'. I pondered those lost in Bucha and all the Buchas about to be discovered.

@TiddyTidTwo

Yes they are human and they are fighting to not be taken over by that midget, bloated, abhorrent TURD

my grandfather fought in WW2 and ended up a POW. I liken Ukrainians with him. He fought back and survived, just. He died young through illness from his torture.

What did he go through that for? To be where we are now watching history repeat itself. Fuck that

I understand.

My GF fought in Myanmar (then known as Burma). At the end of the war they were told to walk over 2,000 miles in 2 weeks to meet up with ships to take them home. He caught malaria and suffered from terrible dysentery. His health was shaky for the rest of his life and he died just before he turned 70.

He didn't talk much about the war other than to say he was proud to have stood up to Hitler and the Japanese and felt the sacrifices had been worth it to ensure the freedoms my mother and I have enjoyed.

I hate to think what he would have made of all this.

I honestly don't know what it makes us, to witness such atrocities and not do more.

I appreciate the sanctions and the supply of aid and weapons but it's not enough. It's not working (especially whilst Germany sends €€€ in gas payments).

I feel like a person witnessing the big school bully kick the shit out of the smaller kid day after day and all I'm doing to help is offering to mop the bullied child's bloodied brow, whisper encouraging words and give them just enough energy bars to fight for one more day - whilst knowing I'm strong enough to hit them hard in the nuts but scared of doing so because they might kick me in the head, irrespective of the knowledge that I'm stronger.

I'm simply getting frustrated by this need not to escalate when it's clear that is exactly what Putin is banking on.

Truth is, we are already at war we just don't want to spoil our manicures in favour of watching the Ukrainians bloody their knuckles.

Where does this "end"? With us all heaving a sigh of relief because Putin has ceased (for now) at annexing huge swathes of Eastern Ukraine and a so called "peace" from which it enables his next "special operation" (or that of his successor whose learned the same lessons) to take more?

We have not learned the lesson that appeasement doesn't work when you are dealing with a person who doesn't value peace.

Bread ❤️

What surprises me is the sheer number of people who are shocked at Bucha as if it wasnt a likely scenario.

The responses of some - including actual governments in some cases has been staggered in its lack of ability in understanding what was happening 3 weeks ago. There was a huge amount of information which made it glaringly obvious what the Russians were up to.

Indeed whilst contemplating who really should be beaten with history books and news reels from the early nineties most, you become more cynical about it.

Its not about forgetting. Its about apathy. Its about willful blindness.

People closed their minds to it because if they thought about it, they'd be compelled to do more. They don't want to do more, so they ignored it and pretended to themselves that the Russians were sitting around their campfires singing cumbyah. Cos it's easier to do that that to be proactive and take stronger steps.

But what if they cross the red line of chemical weapons?

Ffs, good old fashioned suffice pretty well. As do knives (rumours about civilians having throats cut in Chernihiv area). Its not like the Russians haven't done this pretty efficiency before.

I said it probably in thread 2. Take that fucker out and go in.

But WW3? We can't! Now we've sat on our hands. Sanctions are punishing us more than Putin and all those dead, tortured women and children.

We will have to go in. We have to. That murdering bastard absolutely cannot take Ukraine. How have we not learned from hitler I can't fathom. All those millions lost to hitler and here we are again...fannying around, walking the tightrope, trying to appease.

Euromaidan Press @euromaidenpress
There are about 600 Russian PoWs in Ukraine - Iryna Vereshchuk, Deputy PM for the Reintegration of the Temporarily Occupied Territories

That number is a lot lower than I expected from whats been said. However there have been numerous prisoner swaps.

Well said, BreadInCaptivity, TiddyTidtwo and Isjbear. The bravery of your grandfathers. Ukraine fights on without respite as the alternative of Russian occupation is so much worse. What an unimaginable position to be in. And then for NATO, the world to standby, whilst they take the hit for Europe.

RedToothBrush I know it happens. History says so. Human beings can be unspeakably cruel especially during organised butchery and brutality. I am half afraid to read. But everything has been done before. Everything I feared would happen has. We are just now seeing it writ large in Europe. This is the result of any war, not just involving Russia. But particularly brutal because it involves Russia as the aggressor. Zelensky's face said it all. How I wish the West would fight the aggressor with Ukraine and push the Russians back now. Humanity is on the line.

@TiddyTidTwo

Bread ❤️

❤️ in return

Exactly blue

In reality this is where we are. Try as we might to walk the tightrope, Putin and his cronies are burning it at both ends.

It is what it is. We can't escape it. We tried. We've tried sanctions , diplomacy the lot. It's now or never and that sounds scary because it is. It's what the generations before us fought for. We absolutely CANNOT let that go. That's why we live like we do. We are lucky and privileged. The Ukrainians thought the same until mid February living their lives.

It will be us eventually if we don't stop this. Maybe not now. I don't want to tell my kids "well we put sanctions on though"

Some passionate people on here but this is not the 1930s , this is 2022 with the Russians having a massive nuclear arsenal which they have threatened to use. How will 'going in and taking him out' work? How will a third World War help the Ukrainian people if we are a pile of ash. They weren't invited into NATO exactly because of this scenario.

Melon**
NATO have a huge nuclear arsenal. Our combined military would wipe him and his decrepit army out in days.

Why is his so much more powerful we are afraid of it so he can commit atrocities. And he won't stop in Ukraine if he gets away with it.

And the NATO thing is getting my goat now. If you're not in NATO, fuck you, I'm alright, jack. Really?

We would also be wiped out though, that's my point. His army has been shown to be inept and I think any ideas he might have had about taking on a NATO country, Poland for example, have been pretty much extinguished.

@RedToothBrush

What surprises me is the sheer number of people who are shocked at Bucha as if it wasnt a likely scenario.

The responses of some - including actual governments in some cases has been staggered in its lack of ability in understanding what was happening 3 weeks ago. There was a huge amount of information which made it glaringly obvious what the Russians were up to.

Indeed whilst contemplating who really should be beaten with history books and news reels from the early nineties most, you become more cynical about it.

Its not about forgetting. Its about apathy. Its about willful blindness.

People closed their minds to it because if they thought about it, they'd be compelled to do more. They don't want to do more, so they ignored it and pretended to themselves that the Russians were sitting around their campfires singing cumbyah. Cos it's easier to do that that to be proactive and take stronger steps.

Indeed.

Whilst I'm deeply saddened by the atrocities, I'm not shocked.

As been referenced previously on these threads, you just had to understand the Russian tactics in Syria to make an educated extrapolation of what would happen in Ukraine.

The faith people still have in "peace talks" is mind boggling to me, in the context of a leadership that would not even let humanitarian corridors out of Mariupol or aid into it for civilians.

This isn't a war to subjugate Ukraine, it's an annihilation of its people in order to claim the land and the resources. The less people left to police the better.

Yet we watch this and wring our hands and pray for peace....

I am now beyond "hawkish". I want NATO to to give a no warning strike. Air, sea and land in defence of Ukraine and if they suggest they will try to launch nukes we hit Russian territory as well.

Scary, yes. But I'm not inclined to leave this war (and that's what it is) for another generation to fight through our inaction now.

We won't be "going in" at any point.

I find it interesting the hawkish sentiments often passed off as "it's because I'm ex-serving."

My DH is currently serving, number of tours under his belt (front line), spent time in Ukraine training their military prior to the war, plenty of time under a basha in minus conditions (for the very little that's worth in the context of this thread) - he's horrifed by what is happening, but not chomping at the bit for war the way some on here are, and neither are any of our currently serving friends, who've actually experienced war fighting, when the conversation has come up. There's a consensus that help must be provided, but that it has to be done tactfully to save an even greater waste of civilian life. It's not about sacrificing the Ukrainians to save our own skins, but a broader understanding that going in all guns blazing will destroy even more cities and even more lives. I think also a sense of realism - NATO getting involved doesn't mean we'll have this all done and dusted in 3 days and anyone who thinks it will is deluding themselves.