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Ukraine Invasion: Part 17

998 replies

MagicFox · 27/03/2022 07:23

A new place for us to convene, thread 17.

OP posts:
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33
KonTikki · 02/04/2022 11:16

Merkel certainly placed economic advantage over realpolitik - but then who doesn't ?
However Germany needs to get real about China as well. They are very tolerant of China's policies seeing that China is the biggest export market for the German car industry.

jgw1 · 02/04/2022 11:23

@borntobequiet

Very odd to identify Merkle as the main villain in this situation.
It is indeed. Everyone knows that the main villain is Jeremy Corbyn.
MrsLargeEmbodied · 02/04/2022 11:33

it seems germany is getting its gas from saudi now

MagicFox · 02/04/2022 11:35

@WeAreTheHeroes

I think Russia has demonstrated it can't be trusted. Whether ideologically the Russian leadership just can't get on board with doing business with the West on capitalist market terms or there's just deep distrust which means they are just never going to be honest it's a strange way to live and behave.

Pretty good article on this here: thecritic.co.uk/the-war-in-ukraine-may-have-only-just-begun/

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 02/04/2022 11:36

Russians booby-trapping homes as they retreat, claims Zelenskiy | Ukraine | The Guardian

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/02/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-retreat-zelenskiy-kyiv-us-biden-uk-evacuees-escape-mariupol

PestorPeston · 02/04/2022 12:11

The flag of Ukraine was raised on the CAEC
Today, April 2, 2022, at 11:00 am at the Chernobyl NPP promenade, the flag of Ukraine was once again hoisted and the anthem of Ukraine.
The flag-raising ceremony was attended by the operational staff of the station, who, under difficult conditions of occupation, throughout the time, provided and continues to provide nuclear and radiation safety of the Chernobyl NPP facilities.
Today, on April 02, 2022, at 11.00 am, the national flag of Ukraine was raised at Chornobyl NPP industrial site, and the national anthem of Ukraine sounded. The operating personnel of the nuclear power plant, who ensured nuclear and radiation safety of SSE Chornobyl NPP facilities during hard times of occupation and who continue to ensure it now, took part in the ceremony of flag raising.
www.facebook.com/dazv.gov.ua

borntobequiet · 02/04/2022 12:13

Everyone knows that the main villain is Jeremy Corbyn.

Of course.

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 12:38

^twitter.com/LawDavF/status/1505977425460662285^

In refuting Ukr claim of 14,700 military personnel killed, Russian MoD acknowledges what is still huge loss: 'during the special operation in Ukraine, the Russian Armed Forces lost 9861 people killed, 16153 people were injured.' kp.ru/online/news/4672522/ via @onlinekpru

25k Russian soldiers killed/out of action, by Russian statistics. That's 2/3 of the Ukrainian claimed figure. Wonder if the real figures will ever be known.

Natsku · 02/04/2022 12:44

@PestorPeston now that is some good news!

Natsku · 02/04/2022 12:48

yle.fi/news/3-12388118 Finnish prime minister saying the NATO decision must be made this Spring. She hasn't revealed her own position on it but I'm thinking now she has switched to pro-NATO and I'm now almost certain we'll be joining. And I reckon Sweden will follow, maybe not straight away but in time. But we have been warned consequences will follow, there was a whole list of potential ones the other day including hybrid attacks and cyber attacks and reputation damaging attacks.

PaperTyger · 02/04/2022 12:56

I have never Said Merkel is the main villan it's definitely everyone who has done business with Russia. Which is quite obvious And surely doesn't need spelling out.
But Merkel is / was a very key person who was in office for a very long times,close to Putin And set up this gas issues , never took any steps to move away from dependance on Russian gas, infact happily set up Nord stream 2 and ran down the military.

Yes she's massively culpable.what the hell was She thinking?

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 13:15

@PaperTyger

It was Gerhard Schroder who set the whole Nordstrom thing up, not Merkel!. He signed the contracts and thus Germany was tied into them.

He also went to work for Gazprom very shortly after he was no longer Chancellor, which caused a lot of upset in Germany. He is now chairman of Rozprom.

Merkel seems to have been against Gazprom carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/65028

from Wiki: As Chancellor, he led a coalition government of the SPD and Alliance 90/The Greens. Schröder was nominated to become a director of the Russian state-owned company Gazprom in February 2022,[1] and he has been chairman of Russian energy company Rosneft since 2017

Only a few days after his chancellorship, Schröder joined the board of directors of the Nord Stream joint venture, thus bringing about new speculations about his prior objectivity.

Schröder has been criticized for colluding with Vladimir Putin's Russia and being complicit in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine. On 1 March 2022, Schröder's entire staff including long-time office manager Albrecht Funk resigned due to Schröder's alliances with Russia and Putin directly.[2] On 8 March 2022 the Public Prosecutor General initiated proceedings related to accusations against Schröder of complicity in crimes against humanity due to his role in Russian state-owned corporations.[3] On the same day his party initiated proceedings to expel him from the SPD.[4] Shortly before the formal vote to strip him of the honorary citizenship of his hometown of Hanover, Schröder wrote that he relinquished the honour.

It's not Merkel who's at fault here. She probably kept Putin at bay. I don't think it's a coincidence he invaded shortly after she left office.

Schroder on the other hand ... well his tongue is so firmly entwined up Putin's fundament that he's tickling Putin's kidneys.

PestorPeston · 02/04/2022 13:18

Hopefully they will be able to get the radiation monitoring going again. There were some alarming spikes (in the plant area and surrounding forest) when the Russians arrived on 25/02/22
twitter.com/SulfoDK/status/1497159629503148050

Ukraine Invasion: Part 17
PaperTyger · 02/04/2022 13:40

Thanks lisjbear I'll look into that more later.

I like the description of the German army attacking Russia like an elephant attacking Ants.

Very relieved to learn of Chernobyl back in Ukraine hands but I'm deeply suspensious of what they were going there

EsmaCannonball · 02/04/2022 13:46

There's a photograph of murdered civilians in Bucha where at least one, possibly two, of the dead has his hands tied behind his back.

There are also stories emerging of Russian soldiers in Belarus setting up a kind of pop-up market to sell looted goods.

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 13:55

Maybe a bit off the wall, but since Russia's not got the huge numbers of young people that it used to have - I wonder, if Putin stays in power or another dictator arrives, I wonder if they will have a propeganda effort to make women have more babies.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 02/04/2022 14:07

So I've heard from my friend in Odesa and without going into detail, the general feeling is that they will struggle against redeployed russian troops without serious help from the west. I'm very depressed about it today. These people have fought so hard and have paid a high price.

MrsFezziwig · 02/04/2022 14:07

I’m a bit of a lurker personally, but is anyone going to start a new thread?

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:13

@Hillsmakeyoustrong

I fear you are right. I think that putin will try to hold onto the coastline certainly to the East around the Sea of Azov, Donetsk and Luhansk.

MrsFezziwig · 02/04/2022 14:13
Thank you!
MrsFezziwig · 02/04/2022 14:16

Moving over now.

RedToothBrush · 02/04/2022 18:22

Mr. Yanukovych’s initial election victory was marred by allegations of fraud and voter intimidation, triggering weeks of street protests and strikes that were dubbed the Orange Revolution. Ukraine’s supreme court ordered a new vote, which pro-Western candidate Viktor Yushchenko won.

The Kremlin saw the Orange Revolution as U.S.-sponsored destabilization aimed at pulling Ukraine out of Moscow’s orbit—and as a prelude to a similar campaign in Russia itself.

To ease Moscow’s concerns, the Bush administration outlined the limited financial support it had given to Ukrainian media and nongovernmental organizations in the name of promoting democratic values. It totaled $14 million. The White House thought the modest sum was consistent with Mr. Bush’s “freedom agenda” of supporting democracy but hardly enough to change the course of history.

The gesture only confirmed Russian suspicions. “They were impressed at the result that they thought we got for $14 million,” recalled Tom Graham, the senior director for Russia on Mr. Bush’s National Security Council.

Three months after losing Ukraine’s government to a pro-Western president, Mr. Putin decried the breakup of the Soviet Union as “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

He didn't think grassroots politics was possible nor legitimate.

U.S. intelligence learned in 2005 that Mr. Putin’s government had carried out a broad review of Russian policy in the “near abroad,” as the Kremlin termed former Soviet republics. From now on, Russia would take a more assertive approach and vigorously contest perceived U.S. influence.

Ukrainian officials heard the message too. When President Yushchenko’s chief of staff, Oleh Rybachuk, visited the Kremlin in November 2005, he discussed the Orange Revolution with Mr. Putin. Mr. Rybachuk described the street protests as an indigenous movement of Ukrainians who wanted to choose their own political course.

Mr. Putin brusquely dismissed the notion as nonsense. He said he had read all of his intelligence services’ reports and knew the movement had been orchestrated by the U.S., the EU and George Soros, Mr. Rybachuk recalled in an interview.

At a separate encounter, Mr. Bush asked Mr. Putin why he thought the end of the Soviet Union had been the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. Surely the deaths of more than 20 million Soviet citizens in World War II was worse, Mr. Bush said. Mr. Putin replied that the USSR’s demise was worse because it had left 25 million Russians outside the Russian Federation, according to Ms. Rice, who was present.

And

Mr. Zelensky, a former comic and political outsider, had won a landslide election victory in 2019 on a promise to clean up corruption and end the war in Donbas. But he aroused Mr. Putin’s scorn at their first and so far only meeting, a December 2019 summit in Paris where French President Emmanuel Macron and Ms. Merkel tried to break the impasse on implementing the Minsk accords.

Mr. Zelensky bluntly rejected Russia’s interpretation of the accords, recalled a senior French official who was present. “The Russians were furious,” the official said. Eventually, Messrs. Putin and Zelensky agreed on a new cease-fire and to exchange prisoners. Many present thought the Russian leader loathed his new Ukrainian counterpart, the official said.

Mr. Macron sought a rapprochement with Mr. Putin, even suggesting he could be a partner for Europe in managing China. He invited Mr. Putin to the Palace of Versailles and to his summer residence in the Fort of Brégançon on the French Riviera. Their conversations were mostly cordial and businesslike, according to French officials.

But in telephone conversations from 2020 onward, Mr. Macron noticed changes in Mr. Putin. The Russian leader was rigorously isolating himself during the Covid-19 pandemic, requiring even close aides to quarantine themselves before they could meet him.

The man on the phone with Mr. Macron was different from the one he had hosted in Paris and the Riviera. “He tended to talk in circles, rewriting history,” recalled an aide to Mr. Macron.

And

When Mr. Zelensky met with Mr. Biden in Washington in September [2021], the U.S. finally announced the $60 million in military support, which included Javelins, small arms and ammunition. The aid was in line with the modest assistance the Obama and Trump administrations had supplied over the years, which provided Ukraine with lethal weaponry but didn’t include air defense, antiship missiles, tanks, fighter aircraft or drones that could carry out attacks.

Soon afterward, U.S. intelligence agencies learned that Russia was planning a military mobilization around Ukraine that was vastly greater than its spring exercise.

National security adviser Jake Sullivan posed several questions, including why Russia would take such a military action at that time, what the U.S. could do to harden Ukraine and how the U.S. might try to dissuade Mr. Putin. The gathering decided to send Mr. Burns on his mission to Moscow.

On Nov. 17, Ukraine’s defense minister, Oleksii Reznikov, urged the U.S. to send air defense systems and additional antitank weapons and ammunition during a meeting at the Pentagon, although he thought the initial Russian attacks might be limited.

Gen. Mark Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told Mr. Reznikov that Ukraine could be facing a massive invasion.

And
On Dec. 27, Mr. Biden gave the go-ahead to begin sending more military assistance for Ukraine, including Javelin antitank missiles, mortars, grenade launchers, small arms and ammunition.

Three days later, Mr. Biden spoke on the phone with Mr. Putin and said the U.S. had no plan to station offensive missiles in Ukraine and urged Russia to de-escalate. The two leaders were on different wavelengths. Mr. Biden was talking about confidence-building measures. Mr. Putin was talking about effectively rolling back the West.

On Jan. 9, as U.S. intelligence indications pointed ever-more-clearly to a full-blown invasion of Ukraine, Deputy Secretary of State Wendy Sherman met Mr. Ryabkov and a Russian general for dinner in Geneva. Ms. Sherman brought along Lieutenant General James Mingus, the chief operations officer on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff, whom she hoped might encourage the Russians to think twice about their invasion plan.

And

In mid-January, Mr. Burns made a secret trip to Kyiv to see Mr. Zelensky. The U.S. now had even more information about Russia’s plan of attack, including that it involved a rapid strike toward Kyiv from Belarus. The CIA director provided a vital piece of intelligence that helped Ukraine significantly in the first days of the war: He warned that Russian forces planned to seize Antonov Airport in Hostomel, near the Ukrainian capital, and use it to fly in troops for a push to take Kyiv and decapitate the government.

European leaders made last-ditch attempts to talk Mr. Putin down. Mr. Macron visited the Kremlin on Feb. 7, where he was made to sit at the far end of a 20-foot table from the socially isolating Russian dictator.

Mr. Macron found Mr. Putin even more difficult to talk to than previously, according to French officials. The six-hour conversation went round in circles as Mr. Putin gave long lectures about the historical unity of Russia and Ukraine and the West’s record of hypocrisy, while the French president tried to bring the conversation back to the present day and how to avoid a war.

And

Mr. Putin opened the meeting with a forceful litany of complaints about NATO, meticulously listing weapons systems stationed in alliance countries near Russia. Mr. Putin then talked about his research on Russian history going back a millennium, about which he had written a lengthy essay last summer.

He told Mr. Scholz that Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians were one people, with a common language and a common identity that had only been divided by haphazard political interventions in recent history.

Mr. Scholz argued that the international order rested on the recognition of existing borders, no matter how and when they had been created. The West would never accept unraveling established borders in Europe, he warned. Sanctions would be swift and harsh, and the close economic cooperation between Germany and Russia would end. Public pressure on European leaders to sever all links to Russia would be immense, he said.

And

Mr. Scholz made one last push for a settlement between Moscow and Kyiv. He told Mr. Zelensky in Munich on Feb. 19 that Ukraine should renounce its NATO aspirations and declare neutrality as part of a wider European security deal between the West and Russia. The pact would be signed by Mr. Putin and Mr. Biden, who would jointly guarantee Ukraine’s security.

Mr. Zelensky said Mr. Putin couldn’t be trusted to uphold such an agreement and that most Ukrainians wanted to join NATO. His answer left German officials worried that the chances of peace were fading. Aides to Mr. Scholz believed Mr. Putin would maintain his military pressure on Ukraine’s borders to strangle its economy and then eventually move to occupy the country.

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