Can't cope with DS being transgender

[YellowBrickWall]

This is so hard. I feel like I'm in a very weird place. I am absolutely gutted and just want it to not be happening. He is 23 and lives with us. I thought we had escaped this trend but he's got caught up in it. I don't know what to do.

It's hard to describe but I simply cannot go along with it. It's not true, he's not a woman, he never will be. I hate the gaslighting, it's so distressing. This is upsetting me so much but I don't know what to do.

He's an adult and can do what he wants but unfortunately this particular thing requires my involvement and I can't. I am totally against it. There seems to be no middle ground, I either go against everything I know and believe or I won't be involved in his life. It feels like blackmail. It feels shit. I hate it.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

nobody seems to be thinking about her son and how he's feeling.

OP, it must of been hard to come out, especially with opinions and attitudes like yours around! You invalidate her experience

Do you see what you did there?

You invalidate her experience by saying its just a phase, just a trend. What makes you think that?

The way I explained it to him is that it seems like he could be 'trying it on for size' to see if trying to resemble a female is something that fits comfortably with him but that he can't actually be a woman. So what need is it that is being met by calling himself a woman.

He seems very confused about specifics.

For example, I asked how does presenting in a feminine way as a male differ from presenting as an actual female? He couldn't answer this. I asked if it was society's intolerance of feminine men that made it easier for him to say he is female. He couldn't really answer that either other than to say he just wants to be seen as female so if he tells people he's female, they will go along with it and treat him as if he is. I asked how they would treat him differently and he just says 'by seeing me as female'. I said that people won't see him as female, they will register him as a transwoman. The same as, without judgement, we visually acknowledge someone's ethnicity, height, weight, etc. He then said he didn't need others to validate him which confused me.

We talked more about this today and he said that when he started reading more about transgenderism about a year ago he thought he would like to present differently to the world. He already had transitioning friends so feels comfortable with the whole concept and I honestly think he just wanted to join in and have a go for himself. To experiment. The things that he is doing/wanting to do are all superficial. He doesn't want to undertake hormone medication and he doesn't want surgery.

Furthermore, he said that when he first changed his name and pronouns it felt wrong to him. It felt like he was lying and asking his friends to lie. Now he has got used to it he says it feels normal.

I asked him what identity he is using on his job applications and he said he is using his old name and male pronouns for continuity. So at the moment he is actually 'deadnaming' himself. Which further confuses me.

This is why I think it could be a phase in line with the current trends.

Also, he has very little understanding of the impact on women. One thing we did discuss further today is self ID. I explained why I am against self ID and why it's so hard for me to go against that for him. I told him that he is more important than the rest of the world to me but does he expect me to drop all my principles because of that.

Very briefly (sorry don't want to bore everyone) we talked about single sex spaces and how this problem could be easily overcome with third spaces if the TRAs put their money and influence behind it and that women would fully support it too. He said that would still exclude transwomen from women's spaces and I said so what? - they would have the services, provision and protections they need, why do they have to prevent women from having the single sex spaces that they both need and are entitled to in law. He did agree once he thought about it.

We are still coming at this from opposing sides and have a long way to go. Sometimes all I see is a little lost boy, a young man who cut himself trying to shave his chest and I want to do whatever it takes to help and protect him. And then I see a young, inexperienced male challenging a mature female and I can't just give him what he wants because I'm not convinced it's what he needs and it would cause immense distress to me too.

Still struggling with this but really thankful to be able to articulate my thoughts here.

[quote Porcupineintherough]@Annette32123 of course he can decide he's a woman. He can decide he's JC or the Pope too for that matter. Not everything people believe is based in reality.

He might also decide he is a transwoman but not a biological woman. Not all transwomen believe TWAW. Still doesn't mean he's going to tolerate being called by his male name and pronouns.[/quote]
He can wake up and decide he’s the pope or JC - inpatient psychiatric units are full of people who decide that and he would likely find himself in there with them. Funny that.

@Didydani

This. Whilst you're all busy sympathising with the OP, nobody seems to be thinking about her son and how he's feeling.

OP, it must of been hard to come out, especially with opinions and attitudes like yours around! You invalidate her experience by saying its just a phase, just a trend. What makes you think that? Is it because you're not experiencing it yourself? It's like people who go on about online relationships not being real, just because you haven't been in one or aren't in one. Totally invalidating and quite frankly stupid. Did people forget there's another person talking to you behind the screen/phone when in an online relationship? Or does that person and their feelings and relationship just magically not exist now, because people have decided it isn't real!? It's laughable. Anyway back to the point. I hope there's other people in her life who accept her. We can see you don't.

Oh do give over. The thread is full of ‘brave and stunning’ cheerleaders.

It’s the Op who came here for support not her son, so she is getting our support. We aren’t here to support him or allow her to be lectured at by judgemental people like you.

@CloseYourEyesAndSee

nobody seems to be thinking about her son and how he's feeling.

OP, it must of been hard to come out, especially with opinions and attitudes like yours around! You invalidate her experience

Do you see what you did there?

Lol! Well spotted!

Sounds like you are having really great supportive conversations with him Op and hopefully this phase will peter out in time once he gets a job and hopefully makes a few new friends. Sounds like his depression has made him susceptible to social contagion.

So he wants others to see him as a woman but doesn’t want to take hormones or have any surgery? I’m not really sure if his wants are reasonable in that case since he seems to want to remain a man but be viewed as a female.

@Kanaloa

So he wants others to see him as a woman but doesn’t want to take hormones or have any surgery? I’m not really sure if his wants are reasonable in that case since he seems to want to remain a man but be viewed as a female.

But surgery and hormones aren't a simple 'fix'. It is possible for people like the OP's son to want to have a woman's body but not want to take the risks and downsides of surgery or hormones.

@Peachy7

Surely as a parent you should be supporting your child regardless of your beliefs?! It doesn't matter what you believe, it's how they feel, and not having your support find exacerbate their depression. I thought as a parent the one thing you want for your child is then to be happy?!

What if your anorexic child insisted they were too fat and needed to keep on dieting, @Peachy7 ? Would you support them in that belief? Affirming your child in any circumstance is not the easy win you think it is.

But surgery and hormones aren't a simple 'fix'. It is possible for people like the OP's son to want to have a woman's body but not want to take the risks and downsides of surgery or hormones.

So just as I said his wants aren’t going to match his reality. People simply aren’t going to see him as a woman because he won’t be in any way. How many of us know a man who would look like a woman if he borrowed our clothes?

I hope, OP that you can keep hold of the core idea that you are a fully human person with beliefs and needs of your own, and that you have just as much right to be accepted as your son does, just as much right to authentic self-expression (within the confines of compassion and respect, of course, which you certainly seem to possess in spades).

Society so readily forgets that mothers are actual real people, as real as their adult children, that mothers start to forget it too.

It sounds like you are having honest and respectful conversations with him. That is valuable, that is a form of support -- a much better form of support than compelled speech and fake validation would be.

@YellowBrickWall, it sounds like you had a very detailed discussion with your son, and maybe this was helpful to you as you were able to at least discuss some of the things that you are struggling with and which go against your principals.

I do think it is possible for you to hold these principals and find a place where you can still support and accept your son. Or at least not reject him.

We don't all have to agree on everything. Not with each other, or with our children.

I'm sure lots of people on this thread would disagree, and feel strongly that they are right to insist everyone shares their opinion, and that anyone that doesn't is misguided, plus that we should reject people who see this issue differently.

I admire their principals, but I disagree with them. I particularly disagree with them when it comes to our own friends and family who we love and where finding compromise, middle ground, or agreeing to disagree really is ok. I strongly disagree when it comes to our children with fragile MH who are exploring bambi like. I think that although we may find it unpalatable they need our unconditional love and support. Removing this can be catastrophic, and in situations like yours will do nothing to convince your son that you are a reasonable balanced person who is in the right.

I am an atheist. I have lived experience of abuse from members of the clergy. IMO religion is behind a great deal of war, suffering and abuse. I feel gathering to worship a non existent God each week is ridiculous- most of these people then go back to their lives feeling that they 'have done their bit', carrying on looking after themselves and doing nothing charitable or particularly kind for the rest of their week. I also find it odd that such people don't use that 'church time' to do some actual good.

You can tell that I feel strongly about this. But I don't expect other people to share my view. I have family and friends who believe in God and go to church and that's ok. I don't feel the need to tell them how I feel, or that IMO they are part of something truly awful and misguided.

If my son wanted to be a priest that would be ok. He is not me. He has his own mind. He has to find his own way. By standing in his way and rejecting him, I won't put a stop to religious wrongs.

Sorry- I'm rambling!

Please OP, just love your boy. Hold onto your opinions but don't feel you have to force them onto him, or "make him see" . Any realisations that he has will be so much more powerful and long lasting if they some from within rather than from being persuaded or pressured....

@Phobiaphobic that's not even a comparison, anorexia is an illness, there is nothing to have a belief about there!

Anorexia has a number of root causes to the illness, and very much does start with a mental component which gets stronger. The weight loss and physical illness is the manifestation. Very similar to gender dysphoria.
I have experience of both and can see the very clear parallels - also shown me that I believe the current huge rise in adolescents identifying as NB or 'trans' is likely not classical gender dysphoria, but more closely associated with the root triggers to eating disorders such as anorexia
I could probably draw up a PhD proposal on it!

i strongly disagree when it comes to our children with fragile MH who are exploring bambi like. I think that although we may find it unpalatable they need our unconditional love and support. Removing this can be catastrophic, and in situations like yours will do nothing to convince your son that you are a reasonable balanced person who is in the right
Actually this is a flawed argument. I say that as a parent with a child who does struggle with their MH. My love and support is unconditional. But it would be detrimental to their health if I validated their anxiety. The fundamental tool for her to tackle her issues is to understand that what she thinks isn't right, isn't quite real and isn't shared. If I agreed with my DD I would make her more entrenched in thought patterns that harm her. (Not gender dysphoria, it's something else)

I also think there are similarities between anorexia and gender dysphoria.

Possibly in young men in a fear of having to be an adult male and the responsibilities that come with it - particularly if they have competent fathers - big boots to fill! Add the perception that women are ‘looked after’ by their husbands and are expected to achieve less at work (very few women at the top) and it seems a way of running away from the prospect of having to be strong and stable and get on with being what is expected of a man.

With older men who transition - well, it’s hard to make it sound polite, but they are rarely life’s success stories are they? Generally they are men who are disappointed - and often angry - with their lot in life and how it’s turned out and perceive that women have had it better. For many men the pressure of being expected to ‘lead’ is too much.

It’s as sad for them as it is for the many women who do want to lead and are more than capable and never get the opportunity because the world is so sexist.

But surgery and hormones aren't a simple 'fix'. It is possible for people like the OP's son to want to have a woman's body but not want to take the risks and downsides of surgery or hormones.

Well that’s true but the OP’s son will need to accept that the majority of people are not going to see him as female. That may be disappointing and upsetting for him but the sooner he comes to terms with it the better, or he’s in for a lifetime of frustration. Relying on external validation or perception is never going to make any of us happy. We each need to find our own love for ourselves just as we are.

@YellowBrickWall, great post. Sounds as though you and your son are having some really good discussions about this and are both trying hard to understand each other. It sounds as though you have a great relationship. Best of luck to both of you.

@Beamur I don't agree but I think that is because I don't see gender dysphoria in the same way as you. I'm thinking you would add it to the things that your daughter "thinks isn't right, isn't quite real and isn't shared".

Whereas I don't see it as not real, and I wouldn't choose to dismiss it as flawed thinking. For me it is more nuanced than that.

People used to think homosexuality was flawed thinking and a mental illness. That was obviously incorrect.

@Annette32123 crikey, to me that sounds very judgemental. Your opinion of course, which is yours to have.

I don't see that type of judgement as helpful at all- with regard to life in general and not just this topic.

@freckles20
I did specifically point out in my post that I wasn't referring to gender dysphoria. MH is a much wider range of issues.

You don't know how I see gender dysphoria so please don't assume you do

Gender dysmorphia is real and whilst you may see it as an indication of something fundamental there are more than one or two women who can say truthfully that

they understand that belief from their own first hand experience

and know that in fact it turned out to be much more complex

and nothing about actually being a man
and more about

The rapidly changing body and the hormonal imbalances

And

differences in opportunities, expectations and abuse that society pushes based on sex and how that reflected and was interpreted by our brains

Time and time again I have to say

Plenty of women have shown how to live through long periods of gender dismorphia and come out the other side happy healthy and with no need for harmful hormone or surgical treatment which tends to be needed if you want society to see you as the other sex

This is a far better solution than affirmation followed by potentially life shortening treatments
Especially since those treatments don't have a huge success rate in terms of solving the angst

[quote freckles20]@Annette32123 crikey, to me that sounds very judgemental. Your opinion of course, which is yours to have.

I don't see that type of judgement as helpful at all- with regard to life in general and not just this topic. [/quote]
On the contrary I think it can be extremely helpful. If we don’t consider realistically what the root causes are we can’t consider how people can be helped. Many disorders relate to a fear of growing up and being independent - why is it judgemental to consider that the Ops son may be fearful of the perceived responsibilities of ‘being a man’? It is the opposite of judgemental.