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Ukraine-invasion-part-16

991 replies

PestorPeston · 22/03/2022 23:46

Warsaw Russian is letting out a lot of smoke - there has been no decision on who among them will be the next pontiff.

Biden is going there Friday

Is Boris Johnson the designated survivor?

Who the heck let me be in charge?

OP posts:
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18
alwaysontheloo · 24/03/2022 16:10

True @PestorPeston my XH worked in Moscow once for NYE and it was -40 degrees in Red Square 😬 I can't even imagine that level of cold

DGRossetti · 24/03/2022 16:11

There are some soldiers who get hooked on killing.

Certainly makes it easier to kill your commanding officer if needs be.

shreddednips · 24/03/2022 16:12

@elephantmarchingin I'm not sure he was clear on what the 'red line' was, I think he said something along the lines of anyone interfering would reap terrible consequences. Boots on the ground or not, I think we've certainly interfered and nothing has been forthcoming. But I might be remembering incorrectly!

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 24/03/2022 16:15

@PestorPeston

The statement went on to say that the Russians did not bring warm clothes.

I think this may be quite propaganda based. Presumably Russian soldiers only own warm clothes. Moscow is quite chilly in the Winter, -10C sort of chilly.

There's warm clothes and then there's warm clothes. I live in Sweden and -10C is normal in winter here. I have clothes suitable for going out in those temperatures and below. Doing the school run, going for a walk in the woods, watching DS iceskating for hours on end. But there's no way I'd survive if I also didn't have a nice warm home to go back too and a cosy bed with a hotwater bottle. Being outside 24/7, sleeping in a tent, with no food or heat, that's a whole other level of hell.
elephantmarchingin · 24/03/2022 16:19

[quote shreddednips]@elephantmarchingin I'm not sure he was clear on what the 'red line' was, I think he said something along the lines of anyone interfering would reap terrible consequences. Boots on the ground or not, I think we've certainly interfered and nothing has been forthcoming. But I might be remembering incorrectly![/quote]
Ah yes he did.

To be honest (considering I'm normally the anxious one on here!) I would've thought he'd of reacted before now if he was going to

EsmaCannonball · 24/03/2022 16:19

I'm working my way through Tom Burgis's Kleptopia at the moment. I've just got to a bit where, in 2010, two businessmen (one Ukrainian and one Ukrainian-Canadian) were threatened into selling their huge steel mill in Zaporizhzhia to a group offshore companies funded by a Russian state bank (chaired by Putin) instead of to a Ukrainian oligarch. Additionally, they were made to give $100 million from the sale to a group of individuals as 'commission.' That's $100 million of Russian state bank money going straight to the pockets of private individuals.

The book is giving me a sense of just how deeply and thoroughly Russia has been digging its claws into Ukraine. All the talk of Ukrainian corruption and nazism needs to acknowledge the decades of effort Russia has put in to making it that way.

RedToothBrush · 24/03/2022 16:25

Dr Ian Garner @irgarner
Does it matter that Russia seems to be losing the war big time?

Russia spent the first 6 months of World War 2 being annihilated. If Putin pushes the WW2 narrative, total failure in these early weeks may not matter: sacrifice can be interpreted as essential for a bigger victory.

In the next few months, we’ll see how prepared Russians really are to relive World War 2. They’ve done the costumes and parades, they’ve watched the old war movies, but are they ready to pay a huge price?

The government is increasingly telling Russians that the next while will be tough at home and abroad. They’ll have to give up consumer goods, say goodbye to friends and family denounced as “traitors”, and witness more and more soldiers buried.

Yet if the narrative is as persuasive and embedded as many - including me - suspect, crisis and pain may be explained away by many Russians as not just acceptable but necessary to bring about an epic victory.

If that’s right, don’t expect to see riots in the streets any time soon. Of course, it may be wrong: perhaps the power of myth has little hold over Russians, but don’t underestimate the power of religious belief & faith when it comes to motivating people and explaining bad news.

Reply to thread
World War Two was a war of survival, surrounded by a powerful single narrative, a clear goal, and a defined end point.

Russian ain't got none of the above for this one

This isn't survival, narratives are myriad and garbled, and no one knows the end goal

Dr Ian Garner @irgarner
That’s what we see in the West, but that’s not what Russians are seeing. They are hearing that this is an existential crisis. That if they don’t fight inside and outside Russia, ethnic Russians will be eliminated.

WeAreTheHeroes · 24/03/2022 16:28

Putin threatened “consequences you have never encountered in your history” if we interfered in Ukraine. That was widely interpreted as a threat to use nuclear weapons, but he didn't explicitly say that.

toastfiend · 24/03/2022 16:33

I think the consequences warning, followed by putting his nuclear forces on a "special regime of duty" and repeated references to nuclear weapons and refusing to rule them out, makes his meaning pretty clear.

I still think it was largely sabre rattling, and that the recent refusal to deny the possibility of using them was more about tactical nuclear weapons and the Russian tactical beliefs around escalation to de-escalate, but I also still don't think that's likely. I wouldn't be too gung ho about "well he's threatened and nothings materialised yet", though.

Ijsbear · 24/03/2022 16:35

@RedToothBrush

Inna Sovsun *@innasovsun* A woman from Mariupol came to Hungary with 4 kids.

Her own.

Her sister’s kid (mother went to find water and disappeared).

Child of her killed neighbors.

She was running for an evacuation bus and saw a kid, sitting on the street next to his dead parents. She took him too.

Oh Jesus Christ. Christ.
shreddednips · 24/03/2022 16:37

@toastfiend

I think the consequences warning, followed by putting his nuclear forces on a "special regime of duty" and repeated references to nuclear weapons and refusing to rule them out, makes his meaning pretty clear.

I still think it was largely sabre rattling, and that the recent refusal to deny the possibility of using them was more about tactical nuclear weapons and the Russian tactical beliefs around escalation to de-escalate, but I also still don't think that's likely. I wouldn't be too gung ho about "well he's threatened and nothings materialised yet", though.

No I agree, I'm definitely not gung ho about it. I meant that I don't think there's any particular reason to think that the missiles from the UK are likely to trigger such consequences.
shreddednips · 24/03/2022 16:37

@RedToothBrush

Inna Sovsun *@innasovsun* A woman from Mariupol came to Hungary with 4 kids.

Her own.

Her sister’s kid (mother went to find water and disappeared).

Child of her killed neighbors.

She was running for an evacuation bus and saw a kid, sitting on the street next to his dead parents. She took him too.

Appalling Sad
toastfiend · 24/03/2022 16:40

@shreddednips oh absolutely, I'm in complete agreement with you re the missiles. Can't see that it's any different to all the military aid we have sent previously.

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 24/03/2022 16:43

Am I missing something isn't it irresponsible/stupid to plaster all over the news:

It is “highly unlikely” that Nato would intervene militarily in Ukraine if Vladimir Putin uses chemical weapons in the country, a Western official said after a summit of Alliance leaders in Brussels.

Doesn't that just give Putin a free pass to use CW.

Similarly the media reports that Ukraine is running out of weapons and the West weren't resupplying fast enough/didn't have the stocks to re supply seemed to be foolhardy to me, dig in Russian comrades we just have to wait things out for a few more days till the Ukrainian forces have used up all their lethal aid Hmm

PaperTyger · 24/03/2022 16:54

I don't think we should get cocky about no retaliation yet.
They were hit with several shocks themselves! . Now they are re grouping as in rubel, gas, and biden said get ready for cyber stuff.

TargusEasting · 24/03/2022 17:00

That’s what we see in the West, but that’s not what Russians are seeing. They are hearing that this is an existential crisis. That if they don’t fight inside and outside Russia, ethnic Russians will be eliminated.

Many Russians have had a taste of Western life since the fall of the Berlin Wall. What I cannot understand is why the narrative is not being pushed even harder that this is not a war against Russia but against a dictatorship that invades sovereign nations and has as its aim control over more people.

I feel we are losing out by not saying strongly enough to Russians (at all levels) that we are all Europeans and that Russians should be part of Europe. Part of a free and democratic system. But to get there the people of Russia need to do their bit now and reject Putin, his generals and his gang of oligarch robbers. Only then will peace and security prevail and Russians will have most to gain from that. And money to spend on Russia on infrastructure rather than £400m yachts and €50m chateaux and vineyards.

We need to be shouting this here, now, today. Very loudly.

Ijsbear · 24/03/2022 17:04

There have been some cyber attacks, can't find the link now but they are happening. Nothing economy-destroying yet though. I suspect counter-attacks are happening too.

DGRossetti · 24/03/2022 17:07

For the historically naïve, the US and UK backed Russia bigly in WW2.

DGRossetti · 24/03/2022 17:09

@Ijsbear

There have been some cyber attacks, can't find the link now but they are happening. Nothing economy-destroying yet though. I suspect counter-attacks are happening too.
Keep some cash. Keep your car filled up. Have enough food for a few days.
EsmaCannonball · 24/03/2022 17:14

Boris dissembling in Brussels. (I'm paraphrasing here.)

Journalist: Zelensky has asked for jets and tanks. Are you going to send Ukraine jets and tanks?

Boris: We're sending weapons that we think will be far more useful at the moment.

What a weaselly answer. Surely the Ukrainians know what they need? If you're not sending the jets and tanks because of Putin then don't frame your answer as 'we know best.'

WeAreTheHeroes · 24/03/2022 17:22

If it isn't in his script, Boris just burbles an answer. I would set any store by his answer to such a question.

StormzyinaTCup · 24/03/2022 17:26

@Ijsbear

There have been some cyber attacks, can't find the link now but they are happening. Nothing economy-destroying yet though. I suspect counter-attacks are happening too.
I read a security article some time last week that said along the lines of Putin putting cyber attacks, in the most part, on the back burner for the time being and would bring them out when sanctions really start to hit. The aim being that he would cause as much chaos to the West as the West were causing to Russia. No idea of the merit of this.

Interestingly, I also was reading that, depending on the nature of any cyberattack, should any physical damage arise from such an attack to any NATO country then this could trigger Article 5.

DGRossetti · 24/03/2022 17:33

I think the lack of cyberattacks speaks volumes about the lack of skills and progression of cybersecurity. Not support the idea that the nasty man hasn't used them yet because they'd be too devastating.

Also, it would take a hell of a cyber attack to do a much damage as some outsourcing and cost cutting has done around the corporate world

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_RBS_Group_computer_system_problems

(for example)

I did hear a grapevine rumour that Russia elite hackers were mainly Ukrainian too.

RedToothBrush · 24/03/2022 17:35

Weddady @weddaddy
Slow motion Putin disaster: Here in Mauritania, the price of flour has doubled over night. The gov has been forced to recall lower quality wheat originally meant for the country’s cattle to use for humans. Mauritania, absent rains, is likely to lose huge chunks of its cattle.

Domino effect Geopolitics+Climate change: In Mauritania, wheat and flour prices are a matter of survival. Between Putin’s war, the instability next door in Mali, Mauritanian cattle likely will be wiped out this year. Hundreds of thousands Mauritanians live on raising cattle.

MagicFox · 24/03/2022 17:49

This has to be wishful thinking. And not seen it reported elsewhere so not sure how significant TASS is? twitter.com/timinhonolulu/status/1507047590889607170?s=21

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