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Ukraine-invasion-part-15

999 replies

Ijsbear · 20/03/2022 16:14

Next part.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
TargusEasting · 22/03/2022 12:08

In recent years the pattern of the US certainly has been to contract out to private services who aren't technically US soliders but are. Thats what Wagner is with the Russians. Quite frankly he's only stating the bleeding obvious as far as I'm concerned and something that all parties all ready know in practice.

100%! War has become privatised. An idea formed in the minds of some great senators in the run up to 2003 and the rest we know. UK special forces aside. Someone up thread has mentioned the cargo ships stuck in Ukraine ports. That's were the money is, plus other equipment, gold and future revenue streams from crops, fertiliser and minerals. Send in the regular army under a pretext, throw in a resolution. It helps. Defend democracy. Punish Nazis. Defend our values and land. It overlays a veneer of righteousness to the military operation. The boys and girls sent back to Indiana, Newcastle and Perm in body bags are heroes. When enough killing has been done it is time to consolidate. The Queen's shilling is replaced with a P45 on a Friday and a new contract is issued on the Monday. No longer a soldier now a private contractor in the role of 'security' and a new bank account in BVI. This is exactly how wars are forged and fought now.

Putin is a small-time crook. The best his henchmen can do is launder peanuts into houses, boats and football clubs. Totally out of their depth now. The masters of exploitation and entrepreneurialism have the initiative. China take note. This is how it is done.

MagicFox · 22/03/2022 12:25

No surprises here - Russia and NK get (further) into bed together: www.reuters.com/world/russia-north-korea-discuss-developing-relations-2022-03-22/

MurderAtTheBeautyPageant · 22/03/2022 12:28

Navalny has had another 9 years added to his sentence.

Igotjelly · 22/03/2022 12:31

@MurderAtTheBeautyPageant

Navalny has had another 9 years added to his sentence.
That man is so incredibly brave.
MurderAtTheBeautyPageant · 22/03/2022 12:32

He really is.

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 22/03/2022 12:34

@RedToothBrush

More protests (and tear gas) in Kherson today:

twitter.com/Mike_Eckel/status/1506227222511771648

They continue to sing the national anthem.

There are also (unverified) reports that the Russians landed a fresh lot of helicopters at the airfield near Kherson. They are now almost all ex-helicopters yesterday. They've previously lots a shedload of equipment there apparently and they keep trying it.

(Keeping a close eye on Kherson...)

The video of them singing the national anthem says they started singing it as 'the police' approached. Is that an error that should have read 'Russian troops' or are the police now doing Russia's bidding?
RedToothBrush · 22/03/2022 12:34

The New York Times @nytimes
China Evergrande, the world’s most indebted property developer, will not be able to publish its annual financial results on time, the company said. The real estate giant blamed “drastic changes” to its business last year for the delay.

AFP News Agency @AFP
#BREAKING Egypt's Sisi hosts UAE, Israeli leaders at Red Sea resort: presidency

A couple of side stories which I think are worth keeping an eye on.

Evergrande is a massive concern for China because there are still fears it will collaspe and the government will have to prop it up. The fear is about how it could cause a domino effect like the collaspe of the Lehman Brothers before the 2008 recession.

UAE and Israel are clearly worth watching in terms of diplomancy (especially with the changes re: Iran Nuclear deal) and Egypt has a wheat problem. So there are some real common ground issues there which does necessarily align with Western ambitions.

Alexa O'Brien @alexadobrien
“Washington expects more atomic moves from Putin in the days ahead. Moscow is likely to ‘increasingly rely on its nuclear deterrent to signal the West and project strength’ as the war and its consequences weaken Russia, Lt Gen Scott Berrier, dir. of DIA”
www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/science/russia-nuclear-ukraine.html
The Smaller Bombs That Could Turn Ukraine Into a Nuclear War Zone

This isn't a new story. Its been rattling around coming fromLt Gen Scott Berrier for a couple of days. It does seem to be an increasing worry. I can't tell if they have specific reference to intelligence on this though.

Again, another potential development to keep an eye on.

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2022 12:38

The video of them singing the national anthem says they started singing it as 'the police' approached. Is that an error that should have read 'Russian troops' or are the police now doing Russia's bidding?

There is a difference unit of force on the ground in Kherson. Its Russian military police rather than army.

So not an error and not Ukrainian police. Hope that clears things up a bit.

(It makes for an interesting question, if Ukrainian forces do manage to break through and launch a counter attack on Kherson btw)

DuncinToffee · 22/03/2022 12:40

@MurderAtTheBeautyPageant

Navalny has had another 9 years added to his sentence.
Yes

The Kremlin’s most vocal critic Alexei Navalny (already in prison) has been convicted of fraud in another trial (inside his penal colony). Sentenced to 9 yrs in maximum-security jail.

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2022 12:42

news.sky.com/story/gazprom-uk-trading-arm8217s-chiefs-seek-buyout-as-insolvency-looms-12572585?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter
Gazprom UK trading arm’s chiefs seek buyout as insolvency looms

Bosses at Gazprom Energy have been exploring a potential buyout of the Manchester-based business from its Russian state-owned parent, Sky News learns.

EsmaCannonball · 22/03/2022 12:43

Renault (part-owned by the French state and containing Cherie Fucking Blair on its board) has resumed production in Russia.

EsmaCannonball · 22/03/2022 12:47

I'm currently reading Kleptopia and fraud seems to be the go-to charge laid on any of Putin's opponents. The prison conditions often slowly kill them.

forinborin · 22/03/2022 12:49

The video of them singing the national anthem says they started singing it as 'the police' approached. Is that an error that should have read 'Russian troops' or are the police now doing Russia's bidding?
Russia has brought not only regular military forces, but also special police units (SOBR, similar to SWAT) with them.
Here's a video of them 'liberating' a captured village near Kyiv, where they state they have to go from house to house to 'cleanse' nationalists as they are hiding in every house in the village. Previously known as the village population. This is police, not armed forces, official footage.

Igotjelly · 22/03/2022 12:49

@RedToothBrush

The New York Times *@nytimes* China Evergrande, the world’s most indebted property developer, will not be able to publish its annual financial results on time, the company said. The real estate giant blamed “drastic changes” to its business last year for the delay.

AFP News Agency @AFP
#BREAKING Egypt's Sisi hosts UAE, Israeli leaders at Red Sea resort: presidency

A couple of side stories which I think are worth keeping an eye on.

Evergrande is a massive concern for China because there are still fears it will collaspe and the government will have to prop it up. The fear is about how it could cause a domino effect like the collaspe of the Lehman Brothers before the 2008 recession.

UAE and Israel are clearly worth watching in terms of diplomancy (especially with the changes re: Iran Nuclear deal) and Egypt has a wheat problem. So there are some real common ground issues there which does necessarily align with Western ambitions.

Alexa O'Brien @alexadobrien
“Washington expects more atomic moves from Putin in the days ahead. Moscow is likely to ‘increasingly rely on its nuclear deterrent to signal the West and project strength’ as the war and its consequences weaken Russia, Lt Gen Scott Berrier, dir. of DIA”
www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/science/russia-nuclear-ukraine.html
The Smaller Bombs That Could Turn Ukraine Into a Nuclear War Zone

This isn't a new story. Its been rattling around coming fromLt Gen Scott Berrier for a couple of days. It does seem to be an increasing worry. I can't tell if they have specific reference to intelligence on this though.

Again, another potential development to keep an eye on.

I can’t get beyond the paywall so just checking, in terms of relying on the deterrent are they talking about rattling the sabre and threatening or actual deployment of the weapons?
MagicFox · 22/03/2022 12:53

@Igotjelly This'll be long but ive c&pd here:

In destructive power, the behemoths of the Cold War dwarfed the American atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima. Washington’s biggest test blast was 1,000 times as large. Moscow’s was 3,000 times. On both sides, the idea was to deter strikes with threats of vast retaliation — with mutual assured destruction, or MAD. The psychological bar was so high that nuclear strikes came to be seen as unthinkable.
Today, both Russia and the United States have nuclear arms that are much less destructive — their power just fractions of the Hiroshima bomb’s force, their use perhaps less frightening and more thinkable.
Concern about these smaller arms has soared as Vladimir V. Putin, in the Ukraine war, has warned of his nuclear might, has put his atomic forces on alert and has had his military carry out risky attacks on nuclear power plants. The fear is that if Mr. Putin feels cornered in the conflict, he might choose to detonate one of his lesser nuclear arms — breaking the taboo set 76 years ago after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Analysts note that Russian troops have long practiced the transition from conventional to nuclear war, especially as a way to gain the upper hand after battlefield losses. And the military, they add, wielding the world’s largest nuclear arsenal, has explored a variety of escalatory options that Mr. Putin might choose from.
“The chances are low but rising,” said Ulrich Kühn, a nuclear expert at the University of Hamburg and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “The war is not going well for the Russians,” he observed, “and the pressure from the West is increasing.”
Mr. Putin might fire a weapon at an uninhabited area instead of at troops, Dr. Kühn said. In a 2018 study, he laid out a crisis scenario in which Moscow detonated a bomb over a remote part of the North Sea as a way to signal deadlier strikes to come.
“It feels horrible to talk about these things,” Dr. Kühn said in an interview. “But we have to consider that this is becoming a possibility.”
Washington expects more atomic moves from Mr. Putin in the days ahead. Moscow is likely to “increasingly rely on its nuclear deterrent to signal the West and project strength” as the war and its consequences weaken Russia, Lt. Gen. Scott D. Berrier, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, told the House Armed Services Committee on Thursday.
President Biden is traveling to a NATO summit in Brussels this week to discuss the Russian invasion of Ukraine. The agenda is expected to include how the alliance will respond if Russia employs chemical, biological, cyber or nuclear weapons.
James R. Clapper Jr., a retired Air Force general who served as President Barack Obama’s director of national intelligence, said Moscow had lowered its bar for atomic use after the Cold War when the Russian army fell into disarray. Today, he added, Russia regards nuclear arms as utilitarian rather than unthinkable.
“They didn’t care,” Mr. Clapper said of Russian troops’ risking a radiation release earlier this month when they attacked the Zaporizhzhia nuclear reactor site — the largest not only in Ukraine but in Europe. “They went ahead and fired on it. That’s indicative of the Russian laissez-faire attitude. They don’t make the distinctions that we do on nuclear weapons.”
Mr. Putin announced last month that he was putting Russian nuclear forces into “special combat readiness.” Pavel Podvig, a longtime researcher of Russia’s nuclear forces, said the alert had most likely primed the Russian command and control system for the possibility of receiving a nuclear order.
It’s unclear how Russia exerts control over its arsenal of less destructive arms. But some U.S. politicians and experts have denounced the smaller weapons on both sides as threatening to upend the global balance of nuclear terror.
A Yars intercontinental ballistic missile launcher in a military parade in Moscow last year.Yuri Kochetkov/EPA, via Shutterstock
For Russia, military analysts note, edgy displays of the less destructive arms have let Mr. Putin polish his reputation for deadly brinkmanship and expand the zone of intimidation he needs to fight a bloody conventional war.
“Putin is using nuclear deterrence to have his way in Ukraine,” said Nina Tannenwald, a political scientist at Brown University who recently profiled the less powerful armaments. “His nuclear weapons keep the West from intervening.”
A global race for the smaller arms is intensifying. Though such weapons are less destructive by Cold War standards, modern estimates show that the equivalent of half a Hiroshima bomb, if detonated in Midtown Manhattan, would kill or injure half a million people.
The case against these arms is that they undermine the nuclear taboo and make crisis situations even more dangerous. Their less destructive nature, critics say, can feed the illusion of atomic control when in fact their use can suddenly flare into a full-blown nuclear war. A simulation devised by experts at Princeton University starts with Moscow firing a nuclear warning shot; NATO responds with a small strike, and the ensuing war yields more than 90 million casualties in its first few hours.
No arms control treaties regulate the lesser warheads, known sometimes as tactical or nonstrategic nuclear weapons, so the nuclear superpowers make and deploy as many as they want. Russia has perhaps 2,000, according to Hans M. Kristensen, director of the Nuclear Information Project at the Federation of American Scientists, a private group in Washington. And the United States has roughly 100 in Europe, a number limited by domestic policy disputes and the political complexities of basing them among NATO allies, whose populations often resist and protest the weapons’ presence.
Russia’s atomic war doctrine came to be known as “escalate to de-escalate” — meaning routed troops would fire a nuclear weapon to stun an aggressor into retreat or submission. Moscow repeatedly practiced the tactic in field exercises. In 1999, for instance, a large drill simulated a NATO attack on Kaliningrad, the Russian enclave on the Baltic Sea. The exercise had Russian forces in disarray until Moscow fired nuclear arms at Poland and the United States.
Dr. Kühn of the University of Hamburg said the defensive training drills of the 1990s had turned toward offense in the 2000s as the Russian army regained some of its former strength.
Concurrent with its new offensive strategy, Russia embarked on a modernization of its nuclear forces, including its less destructive arms. As in the West, some of the warheads were given variable explosive yields that could be dialed up or down depending on the military situation.
A centerpiece of the new arsenal was the Iskander-M, first deployed in 2005. The mobile launcher can fire two missiles that travel roughly 300 miles. The missiles can carry conventional as well as nuclear warheads. Russian figures put the smallest nuclear blast from those missiles at roughly a third that of the Hiroshima bomb.
Before the Russian army invaded Ukraine, satellite images showed that Moscow had deployed Iskander missile batteries in Belarus and to its east in Russian territory. There’s no public data on whether Russia has armed any of the Iskanders with nuclear warheads.
Nikolai Sokov, a former Russian diplomat who negotiated arms control treaties in Soviet times, said that nuclear warheads could also be placed on cruise missiles. The low-flying weapons, launched from planes, ships or the ground, hug the local terrain to avoid detection by enemy radar.
From inside Russian territory, he said, “they can reach all of Europe,” including Britain.
Over the years, the United States and its NATO allies have sought to rival Russia’s arsenal of lesser nuclear arms. It started decades ago as the United States began sending bombs for fighter jets to military bases in Belgium, Germany, Italy, Turkey and the Netherlands. Dr. Kühn noted that the alliance, in contrast to Russia, does not conduct field drills practicing a transition from conventional to nuclear war.
Russia-Ukraine War: Key Developments

Biden’s diplomatic push. President Biden will travel to Europe for talks with NATO allies this week, in his most direct effort yet to rally opposition to the invasion. In a call with Western leaders ahead of his trip, he assailed Russia’s attacks on civilians and discussed providing assistance to refugees.
In 2010, Mr. Obama, who had long advocated for a “nuclear-free world,” decided to refurbish and improve the NATO weapons, turning them into smart bombs with maneuverable fins that made their targeting highly precise. That, in turn, gave war planners the freedom to lower the weapons’ variable explosive force to as little as 2 percent of that of the Hiroshima bomb.
The reduced blast capability made breaking the nuclear taboo “more thinkable,” Gen. James E. Cartwright, a vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Mr. Obama, warned at the time. He nonetheless backed the program because the high degree of precision lowered the risk of collateral damage and civilian casualties. But after years of funding and manufacturing delays, the refurbished bomb, known as the B61 Model 12, is not expected to be deployed in Europe until next year, Mr. Kristensen said.
A B61 Model 12 bomb being prepared for acoustic testing at the Sandia National Laboratories in New Mexico. The explosive setting on its nuclear warhead is just 2 percent that of the Hiroshima bomb.Randy Montoya/Sandia Labs
The steady Russian buildups and the slow American responses prompted the Trump administration to propose a new missile warhead in 2018. Its destructive force was seen as roughly half that of the Hiroshima bomb, according to Mr. Kristensen. It was to be deployed on the nation’s fleet of 14 ballistic missile submarines.
While some experts warned that the bomb, known as the W76 Model 2, could make it more tempting for a president to order a nuclear strike, the Trump administration argued that the weapon would lower the risk of war by ensuring that Russia would face the threat of proportional counterstrikes. It was deployed in late 2019.
“It’s all about psychology — deadly psychology,” said Franklin C. Miller, a nuclear expert who backed the new warhead and, before leaving public office in 2005, held Pentagon and White House posts for three decades. “If your opponent thinks he has a battlefield edge, you try to convince him that he’s wrong.”
When he was a candidate for the presidency, Joseph R. Biden Jr. called the less powerful warhead a “bad idea” that would make presidents “more inclined” to use it. But Mr. Kristensen said the Biden administration seemed unlikely to remove the new warhead from the nation’s submarines.
It’s unclear how Mr. Biden would respond to the use of a nuclear weapon by Mr. Putin. Nuclear war plans are one of Washington’s most deeply held secrets. Experts say that the war-fighting plans in general go from warning shots to single strikes to multiple retaliations and that the hardest question is whether there are reliable ways to prevent a conflict from escalating.
Even Mr. Clapper, the former director of national intelligence, said he was unsure how he would advise Mr. Biden if Mr. Putin unleashed his nuclear arms.
“When do you stop?” he asked of nuclear retaliation. “You can’t just keep turning the other cheek. At some point we’d have to do something.”
A U.S. response to a small Russian blast, experts say, might be to fire one of the new submarine-launched warheads into the wilds of Siberia or at a military base inside Russia. Mr. Miller, the former government nuclear official and a former chairman of NATO’s nuclear policy committee, said such a blast would be a way of signaling to Moscow that “this is serious, that things are getting out of hand.”
Military strategists say a tit-for-tat rejoinder would throw the responsibility for further escalation back at Russia, making Moscow feel its ominous weight and ideally keeping the situation from spinning out of control despite the dangers in war of miscalculation and accident.
In a darker scenario, Mr. Putin might resort to using atomic arms if the war in Ukraine spilled into neighboring NATO states. All NATO members, including the United States, are obliged to defend one another — potentially with salvos of nuclear warheads.
Dr. Tannenwald, the political scientist at Brown University, wondered if the old protections of nuclear deterrence, now rooted in opposing lines of less destructive arms, would succeed in keeping the peace.
“It sure doesn’t feel that way in a crisis,” she said.
David E. Sanger contributed reporting from Washington.

sageintegrite · 22/03/2022 12:54

[quote forinborin]The video of them singing the national anthem says they started singing it as 'the police' approached. Is that an error that should have read 'Russian troops' or are the police now doing Russia's bidding?
Russia has brought not only regular military forces, but also special police units (SOBR, similar to SWAT) with them.
Here's a video of them 'liberating' a captured village near Kyiv, where they state they have to go from house to house to 'cleanse' nationalists as they are hiding in every house in the village. Previously known as the village population. This is police, not armed forces, official footage.

[/quote] Unless you are fluent in both the Russian and Ukraine language I am not sure what you getting from this video? Are you sure about the source?
DuncinToffee · 22/03/2022 12:59

Renault will enjoy Putin's personal endorsement then

I hope all the companies still operating in Russia will see this personal endorsement from Vladimir Putin & his promise of riches to come.
Congrats @unilever @nestle. Who else?

twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1506225955978756097s=21

sageintegrite · 22/03/2022 13:00

@forinborin

Why the hysteria around Azov? You do realise that they are like 800 guys from total 245K serving at the moment, and the black sun insignia paraded all over the russian press are from the times when they were not much more than an armed group of football hooligans?

Yes, they have connections to some extremely unsavoury far right political characters. Who are so widely supported that they have won exactly zero seats in parliament (and Ukraine is not first past the post, but rather direct mandate elections - they genuinely have near to zero support).

This is some info about Azoz. The first video is by TIME and an FBI agent is interviewed, and it covers how serious the international risk had become by 2018. The second is by BBC Newsnight and includes coverage of anti-Russian violence and interference with Ukrainian internal affairs around the same time (under Zelensky two pro Azov politicians mentioned resigned). The HIll article is about how Congress then ceased direct funding to Azov - and in 2021 two politicians thought to be pro Azov "resigned" - however, military funding (ie hundreds of millions of dollars) went to Ukraine/Azov between 2014 and 2018 and since 2018 I cannot see how the funding to Ukraine would not have also gone to Azov in terms of fighting in Donbass and in the current crisis - meaning that Azov is likely to be stronger and more dangerous now in Ukraine than ever. The last video is about Azov training for children - just footage and interviews. Russia has in the last couple of days warned Ukraine about an attack by Azov planned to take place in Lviv. There are things in all the videos which give some context to the current crisis.

thehill.com/policy/defense/380483-congress-bans-arms-to-controversial-ukrainian-militia-linked-to-neo-nazis

forinborin · 22/03/2022 13:02

Unless you are fluent in both the Russian and Ukraine language I am not sure what you getting from this video? Are you sure about the source?
Fluent in both (the video is in Russian). You can turn on automatic translation of subtitles into English to get the idea. It is a report from a war correspondent from one of Russia's biggest newspapers, who was embedded in a Russian police unit sent to Ukraine.

Just showing how it looks from the inside, as someone upthread asked about why the police is there.

TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 13:02

I've watched the first ten mins of this and will watch later as it's an hour long.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=rmzJr1oUjKg

sageintegrite · 22/03/2022 13:03

@WeAreTheHeroes

The Azov thing is a smokescreen, an excuse for Russia to wade in, especially as they are concentrated in the, guess where, the Donbas.
Look at the post and links I just provided - if you still think not a serious threat to us in the West can you say why, after watching/reading?
TiddyTidTwo · 22/03/2022 13:04

Sorry, got it from this feed. Brave reporters indeed

twitter.com/4corners/status/1505853474071666695?s=21

RedToothBrush · 22/03/2022 13:05

Carl Miller @carljackmiller
When we say Kyiv is winning the information war, far too often we only mean information spaces we inhabit.

Pulling apart the most obvious RU info op to date (as we did using semantic modelling), very clear it is targeting BRICS, Africa, Asia. Not the West really at all

twitter.com/carljackmiller/status/1504896238826700800
Dead interesting thread and definitely something I've been concerned about and noted from the start...

Ukraine-invasion-part-15
forinborin · 22/03/2022 13:08

This is some info about Azoz. The first video is by TIME and an FBI agent is interviewed, and it covers how serious the international risk had become by 2018. The second is by BBC Newsnight and includes coverage of anti-Russian violence and interference with Ukrainian internal affairs around the same time (under Zelensky two pro Azov politicians mentioned resigned). The HIll article is about how Congress then ceased direct funding to Azov - and in 2021 two politicians thought to be pro Azov "resigned" - however, military funding (ie hundreds of millions of dollars) went to Ukraine/Azov between 2014 and 2018 and since 2018 I cannot see how the funding to Ukraine would not have also gone to Azov in terms of fighting in Donbass and in the current crisis - meaning that Azov is likely to be stronger and more dangerous now in Ukraine than ever. The last video is about Azov training for children - just footage and interviews. Russia has in the last couple of days warned Ukraine about an attack by Azov planned to take place in Lviv. There are things in all the videos which give some context to the current crisis.

Less than a thousand people, officially enlisted in armed forces, are a serious international security risk? To whom?

Russia has warned Ukraine in the recent days that Azov plans to attack Lviv? Is it the same Azov that is largely surrounded by Russian troops in Mariupol at the moment?

LOL ok. Thanks for the warning, I guess. I'll keep an eye on them.

EsmaCannonball · 22/03/2022 13:09

Goodness, what is this Azov of which you speak? Wink

I certainly hope Mr Putin doesn't find out about Millwall fans as I think Southend has enough problems without having to deal with an amphibious invasion.