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Ukrainian invasion part 13

999 replies

Alexandra2001 · 15/03/2022 07:40

Seems to be required.

OP posts:
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18
shreddednips · 16/03/2022 21:39
I have no idea what's going on, but it seems like a very odd time to do military exercises!
RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 21:39

The Kyiv Independent @KyivIndependent
⚡️Nearly 6,500 people flee Mariupol on March 16.

Deputy Prime Minister Iryna Vereshchuk said that 6,426 people arrived in Zaporizhzhia from Mariupol, including 2,039 children. However, the Russian forces again haven’t allowed a humanitarian aid convoy to enter the besieged city.

LaDoIceVita · 16/03/2022 21:40

@meditrina

However, if it were Latvia, Estonia or some of the other small states we could well be listening to 'Yeah, but ... nukes'. If that happens, someone can call the Kremlin and ask if Putin would like the world as it is or gift wrapped

That would mean the end of NATO as we know it.

If the founding principle of 'an attack on one is an attack on' is lost, then little remains. It wouldn't be a mutual defence pact. Instead just another coalition. One that is considerably less powerful.

Yes, I agree it would finish NATO.
PestorPeston · 16/03/2022 21:41

I have no idea what's going on, but it seems like a very odd time to do military exercises! also seems a strange place to do them. Right by the border with Ukraine and Poland.

holliem91 · 16/03/2022 21:43

Putin's Speech today has me wondering if the "fifth column" he's referring to isn't just regular citizenry, but he's also sensing people in his own armed forces, administration etc are currently working to "take care of him", and that speech was his way of sending out a warning that he knows of these plots?

I'm probably way off but I'm just trying to read between the lines...

Igotjelly · 16/03/2022 21:43

@shreddednips fair point!

Wrongkindofovercoat · 16/03/2022 21:44

Has Belarus locked down its media/social media like Russia has recently ?

shreddednips · 16/03/2022 21:47

[quote Igotjelly]@shreddednips fair point![/quote]
I've seen a fair few Twitter comments saying those are old photographs (the ones saying it's a military exercise) and that the information didn't come from a reputable source. But goodness knows what's true!

PestorPeston · 16/03/2022 21:47

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Has Belarus locked down its media/social media like Russia has recently ?
Don't know, but many sources are via Telegram and noticeably lacking on Twitter.
Igotjelly · 16/03/2022 21:48

It seems odd it hasn’t been picked up yet in any of the mainstream media. Clearly not Twitter sleuths like we are 🕵️‍♀️

PestorPeston · 16/03/2022 21:51

Mainstream media has an obligation to verify things, or mass panic could ensue. We are free to speculate. Sometimes we are ace sleuths and sometimes we are most noticeably not. Keep your sodium chloride handy.

baroqueandblue · 16/03/2022 21:53

I wasn't having a go at anyone in particular and didn't mean to come across as policing the thread. Just felt like lots of speculation had crept in that was firing up anxiety for some, and then posts were going in a more anxious direction with some scary terms being thrown around and some loss of the cool-headedness that we're saying is so essential in the situation. Just maybe some perspective shifting that felt more alarmist than might be called for, under the circumstances.

But yes, it's a war, and being here trying to take it in and make sense of it instead of pushing it out of awareness is going to feel very edgy, you're right. I suppose I was actually doing what I was complaining about others doing, going by impressions, and I don't want to be a hypocrite so I'm feeling suitably chastened 😳

shreddednips · 16/03/2022 21:57

@Igotjelly

It seems odd it hasn’t been picked up yet in any of the mainstream media. Clearly not Twitter sleuths like we are 🕵️‍♀️
It's been picked up by Deutsche Welle Russia about half an hour ago (or at least on its Twitter), but it just says it's reports in Belarusian media and no further information. Link here, but it's all in Russian:

mobile.twitter.com/dw_russian/status/1504205820015394818

eglantine7 · 16/03/2022 21:57

I can understand the terrible anxiety because I was wreck in the first week.
So, it appears Nazanin was freed because the 400 million debt going back to the Iran/ Iraq war days was settled. So Britain is now open to buying Iran oil and possibly gas. Hmm geopolitics

holliem91 · 16/03/2022 22:01

"Poland proposes NATO peacekeeping mission in Ukraine.

Polish Defense Minister Mariusz Błaszczak presented the proposal at a meeting of NATO defense ministers. U.S. State Department spokesperson Ned Price dismissed it, saying that the U.S. presence would prolong the war."

twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1504214696303505411?s=20&t=ccFA-1nspLfU2MZZm6MhYw

I hope that link works!

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 22:02

Ilya Matveev @IlyaMatveev_
I have collected some thoughts on the immediate impact of sanctions on the Russian economy (a long 🧵). TL; DR: 30 years of economic development thrown into the bin. (1/16)

An obvious starting point: Russia is highly integrated into the global economy. Its share of imports to GDP (20,5%) is the highest in the BRIC group (19% in India, 16% in China, 15,5% in Brazil). (2/16)

By targeting Russia’s reserves denominated in euros and dollars and blocking access to paper currency, the West severely restricted Russia’s ability to import goods from the EU and the US. (3/16)

The EU is Russia’s biggest trading partner, accounting for 36,5% of its imports. Another 5,4% come from the US. Russia can still pay for its imports with currency that comes from current exports, however, this currency is also needed to stop the freefall of the ruble. (4/16)

Overall, financial sanctions dramatically limit Russia’s capacity to import goods. Furthermore, exports are bound to fall too. The US has already stopped importing Russian oil. The EU is still buying oil and gas from Russia, but for how long and at what volumes? (5/16)

Sanctions by logistical companies such as Maersk, excluding Russian banks from SWIFT and cutting other options for international financial transactions further restrict imports. Finally, many Western companies simply stopped exporting goods and services to Russia. (6/16)

The Russian economy is no different from any other modern economy in a sense that it is integrated in complex global supply chains. Logistics works on the just-in-time principle (so the stockpiles of foreign-produced components are very limited). (7/16)

Restrictions on imports will destroy Russian productive capacity in most spheres. Many factories (even those that are Russian-owned) stopped production because they lack foreign components. (8/16)

They might retain the workforce, waiting for the renewal of imports, but if this doesn’t happen in a few weeks or months, dramatic spike in unemployment is guaranteed. In addition, some of Russia’s productive capacity is directly organized by foreign capital. (9/16)

The number of employees in foreign and mixed-ownership firms in Russia is 5 million (some 10% of the workforce in formal employment). Many of these companies are currently suspending activities or leaving Russia altogether, leading to the severe crisis of unemployment. (10/16)

Of course, because of economic linkages, unemployment will be cascading further and further.

All in all, no other economy in the world has experienced anything like this – extreme de-globalization in a matter of days. (11/16)

It is impossible to adapt to this situation. Nationalizations of Western companies, even if they happen, do not guarantee that the new managers would be able to resume production. (12/16)

Trade with China and other countries cannot replace trade with the West: 1) The volume is simply too high; 2) The quality of Chinese goods and components is uneven and unreliable; 3) Knowing that it can hold Russia hostage, China will offer highly unfavorable trade terms. (13/16)

This is worse than Iran and Cuba (for the simple reason that Russia is a bigger economy and de-globalization happened at a much more globalized stage of its development). (14/16)

The damage that is already done is extreme, but if the situation goes on for, say, a year, I predict 30% drop in GDP, 20-30% drop in employment and the elimination of at least half of the middle class. (15/16)

Hunger might be avoided by controlling prices on essential food items, but overall, this is misery and destitution that rivals and surpasses the early 1990s. (16/16)

NOW put this into context with this tweet:

Rafael Behr @rafaelbehr
I see comment on that Putin speech as if it's about oligarchs in West. I think that misses the point. The real audience is westernised middle-class Russians in Russia. He's threatening them. He is casting them as 21st C kulaks - bourgeois liberal scum. National Bolshevism.

Peter @Peterdennehy67
But what’s he threatening them with?

Rafael Behr @rafaelbehr
Repression if they show dissent. Maybe punitive redistribution of assets down the line in economic crisis. 'Hey, this guy owns two apartments, probably likes foie gras, fancies himself as a different caste ..' etc.

The unrest of the middle class is a threat. Putin must switch to terror to keep control. Likewise in occupied Ukrainian Cities and Towns.

Divide and rule at its finest. Complain and I will set the mob on you. Thus keeping power for the elite.

Incidentally, reading through the comments on how Russia counters this we've got the following:

  • the new monetary system between EAEU/China. (will take time to set up)
  • Russian gold (that they can't flog fast enough or get a good price for)
  • switching from a petrodollar monopoly to one where the Chinese Yuan is also valued (again not going to happen quick enough).
  • wheat export ban. This is partly needed to exactly keep feeding the country (90% of potato seeds are imported so thats going to be an issue) but also puts leverage on rest of the world v those forcing sanctions by bully boy tactics. Your choice is starve or help me.

The first three will have no effect in the short or probably even medium term.

The fourth is the most immediate. But still some months off.

The collapse of the Russian economy starts at pace and on scale within a month.

The order and speed these things happen, matters.

Putin must take control of the Russian public fast...

Ijsbear · 16/03/2022 22:10

Put captured Russian soldiers to work clearing out the remains from the bombed theater.

notimagain · 16/03/2022 22:15

@Ijsbear

Put captured Russian soldiers to work clearing out the remains from the bombed theater.
Do that and I’d put money on Putin being all over the media straight bleating away about breach of the Geneva Convention (Article 19).
Papertyger · 16/03/2022 22:16

@holliem91.

I don't think mnhq would feel happy about you feeling unable to post on such a thread?
It's a chat site for people to give each other support.
It's for everyone surely?

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 22:20

@baroqueandblue

I wasn't having a go at anyone in particular and didn't mean to come across as policing the thread. Just felt like lots of speculation had crept in that was firing up anxiety for some, and then posts were going in a more anxious direction with some scary terms being thrown around and some loss of the cool-headedness that we're saying is so essential in the situation. Just maybe some perspective shifting that felt more alarmist than might be called for, under the circumstances.

But yes, it's a war, and being here trying to take it in and make sense of it instead of pushing it out of awareness is going to feel very edgy, you're right. I suppose I was actually doing what I was complaining about others doing, going by impressions, and I don't want to be a hypocrite so I'm feeling suitably chastened 😳

I get people being anxious. I really do. Its human nature.

We have to kind of realise that, and say its ok to feel that, but at the same time be honest about the situation. It can't be sugar coated.

Being rational and level headed can only be possible to a certain extent. We can talk about how likely / unlikely things are, but it also needs context. If the context is saying 'hmm this isn't good' we need to see it.

I think that the internal side of Russia needing to go into this mindset of victim, with threats of terror at dissent to keep control is really important to see. We need to have some sort of response and awareness that this in itself, can pose a threat. A totalitarian fascist Russia is not good. We are talking mass internal persecution here in addition to the horrors of the war in Ukraine.

The risk here, in the absence of money in the state industralises purely to support some kind of war. Merely to keep minds focused on 'the enemy' and an external threat which must be destroyed. If only to stop idle hands and brains from looking closer to home for the maker of their misery.

This is not cool. And poses a risk.

On the flip to this, it will take some time. But we have to make use of that time. Selling out Ukraine, does not buy us time. It just sells out Ukraine.

Right now, Russia isn't in a good position. Supporting Ukraine when its needed - arguably takes advantage of this.

If we think that Russia might throw nukes now, that doesn't go away. If the risk is a totalitarian brainwashed country, several years down the line, which has adjusted and is ready to go and is now ANGRY after years of this, do we think that nukes are really less likely?

Its logic that doesn't work. Yet we are using it, to somehow kick the can down into next week. I don't get it.

We need to be having some serious thought about how you remedy this, and stop it happening. I'm not sure if it can or not. But we MUST see that danger.

Otherwise, we just end up with a situation where Ukraine maybe has a ceasefire and we are all back in the same situation with steriods in a few years time anyway.

Its about how do you break the cycle? There must BE a way. But HOW? Thats where thoughts need to be going. How do you rapidly deprogramme someone who has been in a cult? How do you rapidly encourage critical thinking? How do you empower Russians not to 'zombify'?

Shuuu · 16/03/2022 22:20

‘Vladimir Putin warned 'scum' traitors that Russians will 'spit them out like a midge that flew into their mouths'

This is clearly aimed at his own people. At least I’m hoping so.

Surely this has got to end soon, poor Mariupol in particular. It’s just horrific

MagicFox · 16/03/2022 22:22

Great post @RedToothBrush

Papertyger · 16/03/2022 22:23

Re Belarus I hope it's a coup.
I hope it's not invading Ukraine.

EsmaCannonball · 16/03/2022 22:27

Abramovich is allegedly Putin's bagman so that might explain all the flying around. Absolutely no sympathy for him. He's a very nasty character.

Papertyger · 16/03/2022 22:28

They aren't going to zombify Just like centuries of surfdom under the tsars didn't zombify them. Eventually they had a revolution.
If Putin goes I don't think it's going to be so easy to Keep them repressed.

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