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Ukrainian invasion part 13

999 replies

Alexandra2001 · 15/03/2022 07:40

Seems to be required.

OP posts:
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18
DuncinToffee · 16/03/2022 20:27

TheSillyMastiff
I was going to ask if anyone had any information on Russia's use of phosphorus bombs. But I fear it would just get drowned out.

There doesn't seem much information on that, or maybe I can't find it. Hope someone knows more

PestorPeston · 16/03/2022 20:28

@TheSillyMastiff last unconfirmed reports of phosphorous bombs were in Popasna on the 13th March.

PestorPeston · 16/03/2022 20:29

I too would like to see an alternative translation of the Putin video.

ClaudineClare · 16/03/2022 20:31

@baroqueandblue I don't understand what is wrong with taking the stance that escalation would not be desirable and could pitentially lead to all sorts of bad outcomes? Isn't that NATO's stance right now?

HelpMeHiveMind very interesting point!

EsmaCannonball · 16/03/2022 20:32

One suspects that Putin has quite the nerve talking about people who make their money abroad but live in Russia. Life in Russia is about to get very grim. You can just see how this is going.

I'm still wary of those Igor Sushko FSB documents but they seem to have a kind of prescience.

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 20:34

@baroqueandblue

This series of threads has taken an inappropriate turn, seems to me. Core posters who, from the start, have focused on posting updates and considered analysis have now been overshadowed by those who want to second guess every aspect of potential worst case scenarios. It's actually pretty distasteful, given the tragedy and suffering in Ukraine itself Hmm There are various sub-forums on MN where fears and anxieties can be aired and fed without capsizing the more objective work on this thread.

The irony is that the 'escalation' is happening here, not out there. No wonder some of you can't sleep, you're terrifying yourselves.

Oooo thread police back.

Lets not talk about things that are very possible.

With Putin, unless you stare right into the darkness of it I think its far too easy to just be dismissive of what's already happening/happened and how far it can go. He has form in Syria. He is speaking the language of facism. Russia have literally pushed a 'escalate to descalate' policy over nukes which includes their use. He's using wheat as a tool to lever power. But hell, lets not fucking talk about history and what is happening and where this could go, cos it'll upset people?

Yeah right. We hope things won't go that way, but we need to also be mindful of what war, by its nature is and how it does escalate.

The safe little world of people is a nice place to hide until events catch up. No one thinks things will happen until they do. I've spent years observing it.

Another war is unthinkable, yet possible. Thats the problem for me.

Unless we face up to it head on, then the danger is complacency. And yet you can go in too hard too. We are walking a tight rope.

There are so many very level headed heads of army and academics who are concerned and using phrases and sentiments that are out of character and are genuinely concerned. Should we censor or silence them, because oooo anxiety.

Tbh, I'm more ambivalent about it than anything, since I can't change it. I do think people should be aware of where it could be - precisely because that is the best way to take it seriously.

If you are struggling, go do something else. I'm not pandering this 'be nice you are upsetting people' nonsense. Its a war.

ClaudineClare · 16/03/2022 20:34

pitentially🙄

Wrongkindofovercoat · 16/03/2022 20:39

@Papertyger I think Roman is in Israel ? I don't think Putin is going after the Oliagarchs so much, he made them afterall, so he can probably break them if he wants ? Most of them made their money by being given stuff taken from other rich people or from national companies plundered.
Much easier to cause divison amongst the population, get Russian people to start blaming other Russian people for the situation rather than him, tell them the 'others' look down on them, that the reason their life hasn't been great is because of a couple in St Petersburg with a insta account and a cat with an arty farty name, that sort of thing.

EsmaCannonball · 16/03/2022 20:41

So in the last few days we've had purifying the Russian economy, purifying its culture and now we've got purifying its people. Truly chilling.

Yeahthat · 16/03/2022 20:44

@baroqueandblue

I'm not a "Core Poster" so it may be inappropriate of me to comment.

However, might I suggest that if you want solely factual reporting rather than discussion, then you pick up a newspaper rather than coming on a discussion forum?

MarshaBradyo · 16/03/2022 20:46

[quote ClaudineClare]@baroqueandblue I don't understand what is wrong with taking the stance that escalation would not be desirable and could pitentially lead to all sorts of bad outcomes? Isn't that NATO's stance right now?

HelpMeHiveMind very interesting point![/quote]
I feel a bit lost now too as surely the reason the whole world is focussing their energies on this is to navigate the issue of not escalating this war. If it was a certainty it wouldn’t happen it would be far easier to deal with

EsmaCannonball · 16/03/2022 20:48

Abramovich left Israel because they agreed to introduce sanctions. He travelled to Istanbul but is rumoured to have since returned to Russia.

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 20:50

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-descends-into-despair-708cb8f4a171ce3f1c1b0b8d090e38e3
Why? Why? Why? Ukraine's Mariupol descends into despair

The building bombed there today with 1200 mainly women and children inside had 'children' written on the ground outside it.

It was located in the middle of a park away from other buildings.

It was targetted.

Papertyger · 16/03/2022 20:52

Fascism or socialism or fascist socialism.
Both love a purge.

The irony, the one who needs purging is him.
I'd be wanting to know what's going on with his personal connections. Does he have anyone to behave for?

Yes, these threads have been mostly a good balance between gathering an incredible breadth of information, and comment and feeling and emotion.
Mostly people being kind except when some get on high horses and rude.
It's a human response.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/03/2022 20:52

“mpsw

ScrollingLeaves
Can anyone here answer this question which I am puzzled by which is this: if by any chance Russia had invaded Poland, would it not have been just as impossible for NATO to implement a NFZ because of the risk of escalation?

This is just a general question, not rhetoric or sarcasm.”

“No. It would definitely be possible, indeed probable. But it wouldn't be a NFZ- it would be a straight air battle to repel invaders, with any/all NATO members flying there (and taking out enemy positions that threatened the safety of Poland's skies.

Poland is a NATO member, and it's a defence pact. An attack on one is an attack on all. So whatever steps were deemed necessary to repel the invader would be taken.“

I understand that Poland is a NATO member
within a defence pact and that theoretically whatever steps deemed necessary to repel an invader would be taken.

In practice though, I was thinking it might well seem just as it does now with Ukraine, that the steps taken would escalate to WW3.

Papertyger · 16/03/2022 20:54

Yy Roman in Russia.

The comments about oysters and living off Russia money but outside Russia is definitely for oligarchs.

I wonder where Roman is within Russia, what's happening to him?

AgnesWestern · 16/03/2022 20:56

Is it worth setting up a different thread for those of us with bad anxiety about this? To share how we feel but also share positive news stories when they come up?

Just an idea.

But still check back on this one too for the informative posts.

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 20:58

www.buzzfeednews.com/article/elaminabdelmahmoud/vibe-shift-war-in-ukraine
What You’re Feeling Isn’t A Vibe Shift. It’s Permanent Change.

Then Ukrainians started pushing back. In a deeply rousing display of resistance, Ukrainians — led by a charismatic and direct president — made the case that they want to join the global liberal dream they’d heard so much about. Far from folding in front of Russian military might, Ukraine’s people used social media to tell a coherent and deeply moving story of national identity. In essence, ordinary Ukrainians used the argument of Westernization as a weapon: Here we are, displaying the very values you preach and claim to defend — freedom, openness, transparency, and national pride — so will you come to defend us?

But in making the plea, Ukraine exposed a problem with the West. In the 30 years since the fall of the Soviet Union — nearly my entire lifetime — liberalism has come to be taken for granted, the will to defend it withered. Three decades of not articulating what you stand for will do that.

Meanwhile, Russia has spent years pointing out that the neat story America tells has actually been a lie. The West, so secure in its superior narrative and assuredness that history has ended, has regularly defied some of its own fundamental tenets. It has repeatedly violated state sovereignty (see: the Iraq War). It has overlooked certain crises (see: Palestine) in favor of strategic interests. And it has preached the transformative power of free trade while simultaneously cooking up extraordinary sanctions (see: Venezuela, Iran). All in all, the US may have claimed moral superiority, but Russia needn’t reach far to poke holes in it.

So now the rules-based order stands blemished, facing accusations of hypocrisy from its foes and disappointment from those who saw it as a beacon of hope. If liberalism stands for defending freedom everywhere, it sure isn’t eager to show it.

If you don't stand up for what you say you believe in, you stand for nothing.

This will haunt us, long after whats happening in Ukraine is settled.

Post war liberal democracy meant something. Then we forgot what that was.

And here we are. I do think if we don't stand for Ukraine now, there is nothing thats off limits. And that will catch up with eventually, one way or another.

I do not say that lightly. I am not a hawk by any stretch of the imagination.

MarshaBradyo · 16/03/2022 20:59

@Papertyger

Marsha.

Posters on here expressing something, eg frustration, are not going to actually create that escalation.

I know some think Putin's is keeping tabs specifically on Mumsnet but this paranoia is getting ridiculous.
It's a chat forum, many of us feel shocked, hopeless, frustrated, depressed, scared and it's fine to express that here because it's a supportive chat forum and chatting is helpful.

Yes I’m aware. Although I’m relieved someone else felt the same about the ‘do something’ line as you say it’s a supportive chat forum where we share thoughts. I’m relieved I’m not alone in feeling that way.
RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 21:00

AFP News Agency @AFP
#UPDATE W.House Press Secretary Jen Psaki said Biden was "speaking from his heart" when he called Putin a "war criminal," and that the US State Department has an ongoing "legal process"

She added that Biden was reacting to images of Putin's "barbaric actions"

Oh dear god, now the US are fucking apologising for calling for Biden calling Putin a war criminal.

Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeahthat · 16/03/2022 21:05

@RedToothBrush

Good article. I'm largely in agreement.

Papertyger · 16/03/2022 21:05

Was Iraq a sovereign state?

elephantmarchingin · 16/03/2022 21:05

@AgnesWestern I started one when this first started but it didn't really take off (although I did it under mental health) but I'm up for a thread like that

HappyWinter · 16/03/2022 21:06

@RedToothBrush

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-descends-into-despair-708cb8f4a171ce3f1c1b0b8d090e38e3 Why? Why? Why? Ukraine's Mariupol descends into despair

The building bombed there today with 1200 mainly women and children inside had 'children' written on the ground outside it.

It was located in the middle of a park away from other buildings.

It was targetted.

That article was heartbreaking and hard to read, but it's important to know what is going on. This is genocide, the Russian army are monsters.
holliem91 · 16/03/2022 21:06

@Papertyger

Fascism or socialism or fascist socialism. Both love a purge.

The irony, the one who needs purging is him.
I'd be wanting to know what's going on with his personal connections. Does he have anyone to behave for?

Yes, these threads have been mostly a good balance between gathering an incredible breadth of information, and comment and feeling and emotion.
Mostly people being kind except when some get on high horses and rude.
It's a human response.

Agreed!