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Ukrainian invasion part 13

999 replies

Alexandra2001 · 15/03/2022 07:40

Seems to be required.

OP posts:
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18
PippinStar · 16/03/2022 19:39

@MarshaBradyo

In fairness, we can react however we like

Tbh I don’t get where he confidence comes from that it won’t escalate to nuclear war so when I see we must DO something I think why are people so sure

Why are you confident it won’t escalate?

I have only made about 3 posts on these 13 threads and never once did I say I was confident it wouldn’t escalate. In fact, I very clearly said that as people here aren’t making the important decisions, they can let their emotions take over should they wish.

I just said that people can feel and express emotion about a pretty harrowing situation as they wish, and it’s understandable how they are looking for an outlet for their emotion. I don’t see why you think you can try to censor that for people who need it.

MarshaBradyo · 16/03/2022 19:40

I understand the frustration but does that mean they don’t really want it to happen but it feels like an outlet to type it?

I’m not being paranoid about Putin watching mn but I do t understand typing do something unless you really do want that outcome

Ijsbear · 16/03/2022 19:40

This thread was meant to be informative rather than just chat.

MarshaBradyo · 16/03/2022 19:41

..don’t

DuncinToffee · 16/03/2022 19:43

Interesting

I see comment on that Putin speech as if it's about oligarchs in West. I think that misses the point. The real audience is westernised middle-class Russians in Russia. He's threatening them. He is casting them as 21st C kulaks - bourgeois liberal scum.
National Bolshevism.
twitter.com/rafaelbehr/status/1504179173660798981?t=nwoiKoH_xvpfuxBSkb3zpQ&s=19

Papertyger · 16/03/2022 19:55

Extraordinary.
I'm amazed that Mr cold hard Putin has been so publically vulnerable?
Right now I'd be wondered who he has good personal relationships with.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 16/03/2022 20:05

bourgeois liberal scum is that the same thing as the liberal metropolitan elite ? I notice how he is doing this after thousands of academics and research scientists have signed petition's against the war, perhaps the people of Russia have had enough of experts ?

Ijsbear · 16/03/2022 20:06

Another step back to the Soviet era.

ScrollingLeaves · 16/03/2022 20:09

Can anyone here answer this question which I am puzzled by which is this: if by any chance Russia had invaded Poland, would it not have been just as impossible for NATO to implement a NFZ because of the risk of escalation?

This is just a general question, not rhetoric or sarcasm.

baroqueandblue · 16/03/2022 20:10

This series of threads has taken an inappropriate turn, seems to me. Core posters who, from the start, have focused on posting updates and considered analysis have now been overshadowed by those who want to second guess every aspect of potential worst case scenarios. It's actually pretty distasteful, given the tragedy and suffering in Ukraine itself Hmm There are various sub-forums on MN where fears and anxieties can be aired and fed without capsizing the more objective work on this thread.

The irony is that the 'escalation' is happening here, not out there. No wonder some of you can't sleep, you're terrifying yourselves.

toastfiend · 16/03/2022 20:11

@MarshaBradyo

I understand the frustration but does that mean they don’t really want it to happen but it feels like an outlet to type it?

I’m not being paranoid about Putin watching mn but I do t understand typing do something unless you really do want that outcome

I think it's more that they just don't really understand what the outcome could be because the press glorifies NATO forces and makes them appear invincible.

I've said this on a previous thread, but it's really noticeable that all those calling for NATO action refer to it as "do something" - it's all pretty euphemistic as to what they really mean - "do something" is so much more palatable than "send more men and women off to be shot at, blown up and have their mental health destroyed."

That's the reality. Even if it doesn't turn into nuclear war, NATO getting involved means more human suffering, more children losing a parent, more parents losing a child, more buildings blown up, more lives damaged. NATO is not some invincible, automated force. It's people. Just people. Highly trained, well-equipped people, but people all the same. Not to mention the escalation and widening of the conflict that would undoubtedly happen. I really, firmly believe that people shouldn't call for it unless they'd be willing to do it themselves. Not just brave words with the expectation that someone else can do the bravery bit for them.

EsmaCannonball · 16/03/2022 20:12

Escalation is all within Putin's power. He escalated to a major war in Europe out of his own desire, not in reaction to threats from Western countries. He's escalating events in this war every day, not in reaction to threats. Putin learns. He's learned that he can push and push and push and everyone is too scared to push back. I'm not advocating that Western countries commit troops to this war but that we need to be more muscular in the weaponry we're providing. Putin has assumed that we're all about peace at any cost and we seem to have assumed that he can be mollified by seeing that he faces no threat.

Papertyger · 16/03/2022 20:12

I'm astonished.
Where is Roman? Wasn't he thought to be in Moscow? Because if so,if I was his family I'd be worried about his safety right now?
He's specifically targeting oligarchs like Roman who don't live in Russia!
He said having villas abroad is one thing but not living abroad

Definitely a sign they are putting the screw's on him.

elephantmarchingin · 16/03/2022 20:14

Oh no this doesn't look good. Back to panicking again! 'As we just reported, US President Joe Biden called Russian President Vladimir Putin a "war criminal" for the very first time.
According to the TASS news agency, the Kremlin says Biden's comments are "unacceptable and unforgivable rhetoric".'

RedToothBrush · 16/03/2022 20:14

Zelensky deep fake

Nathaniel Gleicher @ngleicher
1/ Earlier today, our teams identified and removed a deepfake video claiming to show President Zelensky issuing a statement he never did. It appeared on a reportedly compromised website and then started showing across the internet.

2/ We've quickly reviewed and removed this video for violating our policy against misleading manipulated media, and notified our peers at other platforms.

3/ More about our policy against manipulated media in our community standards:
transparency.fb.com/en-gb/policies/community-standards/misinformation/

mpsw · 16/03/2022 20:15

@ScrollingLeaves

Can anyone here answer this question which I am puzzled by which is this: if by any chance Russia had invaded Poland, would it not have been just as impossible for NATO to implement a NFZ because of the risk of escalation?

This is just a general question, not rhetoric or sarcasm.

No. It would definitely be possible, indeed probable. But it wouldn't be a NFZ- it would be a straight air battle to repel invaders, with any/all NATO members flying there (and taking out enemy positions that threatened the safety of Poland's skies.

Poland is a NATO member, and it's a defence pact. An attack on one is an attack on all. So whatever steps were deemed necessary to repel the invader would be taken.

PestorPeston · 16/03/2022 20:15

Kremlin says Biden's comments on Putin "unacceptable and unforgivable," after the US President called Putin a "war criminal".

Along with Putin's purification broadcast, I'm inclined to believe he is taking this very personally.

MarshaBradyo · 16/03/2022 20:15

@baroqueandblue

This series of threads has taken an inappropriate turn, seems to me. Core posters who, from the start, have focused on posting updates and considered analysis have now been overshadowed by those who want to second guess every aspect of potential worst case scenarios. It's actually pretty distasteful, given the tragedy and suffering in Ukraine itself Hmm There are various sub-forums on MN where fears and anxieties can be aired and fed without capsizing the more objective work on this thread.

The irony is that the 'escalation' is happening here, not out there. No wonder some of you can't sleep, you're terrifying yourselves.

I’m not sure who this is aimed at?

But I’ve appreciated many posts on this thread but if the US and other countries draw back from certain provision in consideration of escalation then I have no issue with that being discussed as a factor on here.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 16/03/2022 20:18

@ScrollingLeaves if Russia had invaded, bombarded and wreaked the same sort of havoc on a Nato country as it has on Ukraine, then I imagine the whole point of Nato would mean that Russia would be well and truly into a war with all the Nato countries and that would mean on land and sea and sky. So anyone in the air who isn't friendly would get shot at ?

mpsw · 16/03/2022 20:19

I’m not sure who this is aimed at?

People in general, that's how I read it

A reminder of how the thread started out and why people find it valuable.

TheSillyMastiff · 16/03/2022 20:22

@baroqueandblue

This series of threads has taken an inappropriate turn, seems to me. Core posters who, from the start, have focused on posting updates and considered analysis have now been overshadowed by those who want to second guess every aspect of potential worst case scenarios. It's actually pretty distasteful, given the tragedy and suffering in Ukraine itself Hmm There are various sub-forums on MN where fears and anxieties can be aired and fed without capsizing the more objective work on this thread.

The irony is that the 'escalation' is happening here, not out there. No wonder some of you can't sleep, you're terrifying yourselves.

I have to agree with you to a certain extent. I've been here since thread one, where it was really just updates and some discussion around geopolitics and history. Which were fascinating. I learnt so much.

Now I loose track because 14+ pages are just taken up by random discussion about hypothetical escalation.

I was going to ask if anyone had any information on Russia's use of phosphorus bombs. But I fear it would just get drowned out.

MrsLargeEmbodied · 16/03/2022 20:24

Not sure if this has been shared already
BBC News - Ukraine: Putin will search for a way to save face
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993

MarshaBradyo · 16/03/2022 20:24

@mpsw

I’m not sure who this is aimed at?

People in general, that's how I read it

A reminder of how the thread started out and why people find it valuable.

I know why I find them valuable and have been here from the first thread, but that includes the possibility of possible escalation

Leaders around the world are taking this into account

Can you be explicit about what you both mean?

MarshaBradyo · 16/03/2022 20:25

Toast thanks for your post, I agree.

HelpMeHiveMind · 16/03/2022 20:26

Can we be sure that Putin purification video isn't doctored at all, in the same vein as the Zelensky one urging people to lay down weapons? I'm afraid I'm not really trusting propaganda and Twitter posts from any perspective right now. Meanwhile...Biden calling Putin a war criminal with resultant statement that it's unforgiveable. OK, sure - but what does unforgiveable look like? Words aren't much basis for escalation are they? I'm pretty sure Putin has said plenty of things the West have said / done are unforgiveable (bless his little easily offended dictator heart)