Ukrainian invasion part 13

[Alexandra2001]

Seems to be required.

Agree it’s about maintaining maximum pressure in order to get the most out of negotiations. Any sign of weakness by Ukraine or it’s allies would be jumped on by the Kremlin

@Motherdare

I know deep down NATO getting involved may be the worse thing, but right now I just think, get in there and help

It would be the worst thing. It would not help Ukraine. It would escalate the war. It would affect more countries and all our lives would be impacted. It just wouldn’t help even though we all want something to stop the horror. Zelensky knows this.

I know you & pp are saying the right thing, I just don't agree. I wish I did, I really do, and thankfully I am not the one making decision, otherwise I would have NATO involved form day 1. I don't know if I'm feeling like this because of how I'm doing mentally or what. Anyway I guess I just needed to get that out there. I hope something happens in Ukraine's favor, whatever that looks like

@Iwasfeelingepic but if NATO gets involved there is a very very high chance your daughter would be affected too! Not sure why people don't understand that

@holliem91

Two thoughts this evening:

My first thought is: I understand why the US is sending in all that military aid and Ukraine isn't going to get a NFZ so that's second best but is it not going to push Russia towards using chemical/bio weapons? Or even push China towards getting involved militarily?

My second though: That's a lot of equipment the US are sending, so why have we been seeing so many positives surrounding peace talks/negotiations? We know the situation in Ukraine is bad but it did somehow see a light at the end of the tunnel.

I probably am just being naive but these two things are bothering me.

I just see this as Putin being back into a corner (rightly so) and wondered if this could escalate the situation.

I'm not an expert, but I'd hazard that the risk of Russia using chemical or biological weapons increases the more they struggle to make progress and begin to get desperate. I'm not sure the drones would be the catalyst as such.

In terms of weapons supplies and peace talks, Russia might be making more positive noises about the negotiations, but it hasn't made a difference to the brutality of the onslaught so far. So until it becomes apparent whether Russia is acting in good faith, Ukraine has to have what it needs to continue fighting the war. It's on Russia to make the first move on dialling down the aggression, not for Ukraine (and its supporters) to hold off acquiring weapons that could give them an edge.

I very much hope the talks come to something, but Ukraine has to be prepared if they don't. IMO anyway.

Thank you @PippinStar.

we are not zombies walking around gormlessly absorbing any old shit someone chucks at us

There are many thoughtful and intelligent people in the world. That intelligence is in no way shape or form related to someone’s level of income or education. Everyone should have a vote. It’s the least worst option.

However, governments and special interest groups and corporations spend billions on influencing, lying, misleading, special Ops, lobbying, marketing, manipulating voters and customers. If that influence did not work then why are they spending those billions?? Humans are susceptible to all kinds of bias including strategic misinformation.

This does not mean that I don’t believe in democracies or that everybody shouldn’t get a vote! But it does mean that we have to defend those democracies from those who try to rig them in their favour. This can only be done if we see the problem exists.

Ukraine, the country currently paying the price for being the eastern border of Europe and the only state I’m aware of in the world that gave up (as opposed to never acquiring) its major weapons.

And no country in the world will ever make that mistake again.

[quote elephantmarchingin]@Iwasfeelingepic but if NATO gets involved there is a very very high chance your daughter would be affected too! Not sure why people don't understand that[/quote]
Yes to me it spreads the likelihood of greater war, as hard as it is to acknowledge

Try to stay calm if you can. It is the right thing to do. I really, really doubt that drones will be the step that triggers a direct conflict when the absolutely enormous action so far has triggered nothing, apart from strong words.

Russia didn't hesitate to give the North Vietnamese MIG fighter planes during the Vietnam War, and it didn't precipitate a war with the US then.

[quote elephantmarchingin]@Iwasfeelingepic but if NATO gets involved there is a very very high chance your daughter would be affected too! Not sure why people don't understand that[/quote]
Exactly.

Be interesting to see what Federov says about his treatment by the Russians. They are also saying he will return to his duties as mayor of Melitopol, so what happens with the Russian-imposed collaborator mayor will also be interesting.

@Iwasfeelingepic

Thank you *@PippinStar*.

I feel the same too guys.

@Ijsbear

Same reason that North Korea, Iran etc were/are desperate to develop nuclear weapons.

[quote elephantmarchingin]@Iwasfeelingepic but if NATO gets involved there is a very very high chance your daughter would be affected too! Not sure why people don't understand that[/quote]
I do understand that, I really do. I get why we can't get involved as the risk is the invasion escalating into other countries or God forbid nuclear weapons being used etc. I just don't agree that's it right.
I'm not trying to be argumentive or anything, just saying how I feel.
Thankfully for my daughter I'm not in charge.. and yes I love my daughter before I get accused of being heartless.
X

@Iwasfeelingepic

You don't feel it's right that one of our goals be preventing this conflict from escalating into a nuclear war which could wipe out humanity?
What's ethical about risking billions of lives by taking a bet on the response of a psychotic dictator?

If NATO get involved it will involve the main counties helping the refugees who have fled, they will be fleeing again alongside the natives of those counties, it will literally do no good, just further distraction.

NATO has to be more threatening, IMO. Cowering, and playing nice and being non-threatening trusts everything to Russia's power of mercy and use of reason, which as we've seen is non-existent. They need to stop talking so much about what they won't do and start telling Putin about what they could do.

[quote Yeahthat]@Iwasfeelingepic

You don't feel it's right that one of our goals be preventing this conflict from escalating into a nuclear war which could wipe out humanity?
What's ethical about risking billions of lives by taking a bet on the response of a psychotic dictator?[/quote]
I agree with you here

@EsmaCannonball

NATO has to be more threatening, IMO. Cowering, and playing nice and being non-threatening trusts everything to Russia's power of mercy and use of reason, which as we've seen is non-existent. They need to stop talking so much about what they won't do and start telling Putin about what they could do.

They’ve purposefully refrained from upping the level of rhetoric so that Putin essentially has nothing to then escalate on top of. It makes his threats, such as those about readying his nuclear arsenal, more like pissing into the wind if there is no response.

I think we need to stop reacting emotionally and keep calm

I know it’s hard but the escalation part is no small point.

[quote Yeahthat]@Iwasfeelingepic

You don't feel it's right that one of our goals be preventing this conflict from escalating into a nuclear war which could wipe out humanity?
What's ethical about risking billions of lives by taking a bet on the response of a psychotic dictator?[/quote]
You & other posters are right. I don't know how to express how I fell properly.
I'm sorry.

And as others have said, NATO being involved would likely be of absolutely no benefit to everyday Ukrainians, all it would do is drag more people into unimaginable suffering alongside them.

It's absolutely not right that NATO can't step in, it's tremendously unfair that Russia's nuclear weapons have essentially tied our hands. I think everyone feels the complete injustice of the situation very keenly. We have a responsibility to Ukraine, but we also have a responsibility to the rest of the world too not to trigger something catastrophic. So many Ukrainian refugees have fled to neighbouring countries, and they ought to be safe in them. The last thing anyone needs is the conflict widening.

But I completely understand how PPs feel about not stepping in. It is intolerable.

[quote elephantmarchingin]**@Iwasfeelingepic but if NATO gets involved there is a very very high chance your daughter would be affected too! Not sure why people don't understand that[/quote]
That's very patronising. Not sure why you can't understand that people with children can be in favour of NATO intervention and be perfectly aware that it will impact their children.

@Iwasfeelingepic You're not alone in feeling the way you do. I've supported NATO intervention since the early days of the invasion.

@Iwasfeelingepic don’t be sorry, you clearly care deeply. I think having a desire to help practically but no outlet too is really frustrating as we feel impotent. Best the West can do is support Ukraine as we are, pray the storm passes as they all do and then hold their hand and give them support as they rebuild.