Ukraine Invasion Part 12

[MagicFox]

I see the other thread is filling up so starting the twelfth...

I think it’s possible to recognize that there is a neo nazi issue within Ukraine whilst also condemning what Putin is doing as being far, far worse. Ukraine suffered horribly as part of the Soviet Union, and Ukrainian nationalists seeking independence (quite reasonably) saw working with the Nazis as a way to achieve this. Nazism then, in some quarters, became interlinked with both anti Soviet and Ukrainian independence movements. I’m simplifying hugely for the sake of getting the gist over, as it is quite a complex issue.

Considering the issue that Russia also has with its own far right, you would have thought that Putin would have focused on removing those from his own country, rather than those elements in the neighboring one. It’s a bogus justification for his actions.

oh and sometimes

• dismissal of individuals' direct lived experience

Bluebells ODFOD
Isn't there another thread you can post your poison on? We know there are 'bad people' in Ukraine, there are 'bad people' in every country.

Strange how you only began posting on MN just before the invasion of Ukraine and the vast majority of your posts are on Covid or the war threads. If you're being paid for this I don't know how you sleep at night.

The Russian people are kept in the dark about what is going on, you don't have that excuse and still you push Putin's agenda, I hope it's worth it.
Go back and tell your paymasters that it's not working this time no one is listening.
Totally agree with ljsbear you're not worth engaging with and I won't be after this post.

That is some twisted logic.

It really isn't, it's you trying call out others for being far right sympathisers because of Azov and ignoring the far right situation of Russia.

It's a classic case of you being so Anti West/IDPOL situation that you ignore that by your rules you are in fact far right with Wagner, in your t, I will give you the benifit of doubt of being a critical thinker, but on your terms how do you feel being a full on supporter of Wagner group?

I watched Winter in Ukraine earlier. Interesting to see the unity of Ukrainians of different religious and ethnic groups, across all ages. Seems Putin has been seething about the Ukrainians' determination to align themselves with Europe ever since.

I'm getting confused with the threads but I've seen on twitter that we are supplying Ukraine with starteakers? Sp.

Apparently an extremely effective amazing piece of engineering which can target a plane 7km away (?l ) and is extremely fast.
Military Said because no Ukraine planes are in the sky this will be easy targets for Ukrainian army.
The only issue is they are complicated to work.

But at least some sort of breakthrough on the no fly zone conumdrum.

Thanks ljsbear. TokyoSushi That is worrying.

@Papertyger

I'm getting confused with the threads but I've seen on twitter that we are supplying Ukraine with starteakers? Sp.

Apparently an extremely effective amazing piece of engineering which can target a plane 7km away (?l ) and is extremely fast.
Military Said because no Ukraine planes are in the sky this will be easy targets for Ukrainian army.
The only issue is they are complicated to work.

But at least some sort of breakthrough on the no fly zone conumdrum.

This makes me go to bed feeling a bit happier. I hope they already have them if attacks on Kyiv are imminent as a pp has just said.

I've just listened to a Lincoln Project (US centre-right, anti-Trumpism) podcast with Lieutenant-Colonel Alexander Vindman, the former Director of European Affairs on the US National Security Council. He believes that he only way for NATO to avoid being dragged into a hot war in the future is to give Ukraine the arms it needs to defend its skies now. He specifically mentions drones for attacking airfields and coastal missiles for attacking the Russian navy. It's gut-wrenching that we didn't provide Ukraine with the support it needed when there was a 40-mile long sitting target approaching Kyiv.

@Papertyger

I'm getting confused with the threads but I've seen on twitter that we are supplying Ukraine with starteakers? Sp.

Apparently an extremely effective amazing piece of engineering which can target a plane 7km away (?l ) and is extremely fast.
Military Said because no Ukraine planes are in the sky this will be easy targets for Ukrainian army.
The only issue is they are complicated to work.

But at least some sort of breakthrough on the no fly zone conumdrum.

Starstreak MANPAD (man portable air defence). Higher ceiling than the Stinger and very fast.

Issue with all the MANPADs is they are limited to how high they can hit vs vehicle mounted SAMS. As long as Ukraine retain some of the latter Russian planes will try to fly low to limit exposure, but this brings them within range of the MANPADS. If they are effectively destroyed then Russian planes can just fly above the range of the MANPADS and drop bombs with impunity.

@DesdamonasHandkerchief

Bluebells ODFOD Isn't there another thread you can post your poison on? We know there are 'bad people' in Ukraine, there are 'bad people' in every country.

Strange how you only began posting on MN just before the invasion of Ukraine and the vast majority of your posts are on Covid or the war threads. If you're being paid for this I don't know how you sleep at night.

The Russian people are kept in the dark about what is going on, you don't have that excuse and still you push Putin's agenda, I hope it's worth it.
Go back and tell your paymasters that it's not working this time no one is listening.
Totally agree with ljsbear you're not worth engaging with and I won't be after this post.

Seriously You guys really need to get a grip of reality. It's scary.

@EsmaCannonball

I've just listened to a Lincoln Project (US centre-right, anti-Trumpism) podcast with Lieutenant-Colonel Alexander Vindman, the former Director of European Affairs on the US National Security Council. He believes that he only way for NATO to avoid being dragged into a hot war in the future is to give Ukraine the arms it needs to defend its skies now. He specifically mentions drones for attacking airfields and coastal missiles for attacking the Russian navy. It's gut-wrenching that we didn't provide Ukraine with the support it needed when there was a 40-mile long sitting target approaching Kyiv.

That's also a sure fire way to bring us directly in conflict!

Not this too! Apparently it's Iran who have fired them. As if there's not enough going on!

I'm going to bed, hope I'm not back here at 4am having another 'we're doomed' moment!

Perhaps there are things going on in the west to rescue Ukraine that we will not know about until they happen.

The whole point of these threads is for people to be able to post opposing views. I take a dim view of what I see as bullying or shouting down even of opinions I fundamentally disagree with. . As for the counter argument of stopping fake newsI well if you Google hard enough then you can find enough links to support any argument. I could share enough links supporting the view that the earth is flat but it doesn't make me right.

So returning to the point of Nazis, let's look at the facts. Firstly we should actually be using the term fascist not Nazi (Nazis being defined as members of the German National Socialists of the 1930s / 1940s)). On that definition there are no Nazis in Russia or Ukraine. The reason people use this term is to get an emotive reaction- "look at that side, they're Nazis, who we know from our school history lessons to be evil"

Fascists are defined as ultranationalists with dictatorial power structures, that are violent to any opposition. The trouble is one nation's patriots can easily be seen by another country as fascists. The reality is that there are ultranationalist fascists in most countries including Russia and Ukraine and even Luxembourg.

The point is that it is possible to unequivocally condemn the unprovoked attack by Russia on Ukraine and at the same time be critical of ultranationalist fascists in Russia and Ukraine and even little Luxembourg.

@whumpthereitis

"Considering the issue that Russia also has with its own far right, you would have thought that Putin would have focused on removing those from his own country, rather than those elements in the neighboring one. It’s a bogus justification for his actions."

++++

Ahh but you see Putin would see Russian ultranationalist as patriots whilst seeing Ukrainian ultranationalists as "Nazis" and vice versa. The whole whose a "Nazi" and who isn't is bollocks designed for people to have a simplistic view on good guys and bad guys because they learnt about Nazis in GCSE History and vaguely remember it.

The fact is Russia launched an unprovoked attack on Ukraine because it wanted them in their sphere of influence and the majority of Ukrainians (now virtually all Ukrainians) said no.

This makes the Russia and Putin the bad guys here - end of.

I don't know if this has already been posted, but Sergei Brilev, a Putin-propagandist newsreader who spouts conspiracy theories about the genocide of Russian-speaking peoples in the Donbass region, has UK citizenship and a nice flat in London. The people we let in and the people we don't.

I think it also needs to be mentioned that a Russian bot tactic, if they are not winning the argument, is to turn threads and sites into vicious personal arguments and get them closed down, or to make them so toxic that people stop using them.

Indeed @EsmaCannonball

@EsmaCannonball

I don't think any Russian "bot"
Is really going to spend their time posting on MN, sifting through the "should I kick the bastard out"
threads just to find the articles on Ukraine. BBC comments section yes but MN? Nah that's just paranoid.

I was wondering what role Azov was playing here. Ukraine does have a far right organisation that had been a problem for a long time. I was thinking along the lines if are Russia & Azov attacking civilians as opposed to just Russia. Perhaps there are two issues in Ukraine right now. However if it’s highlighted as a civil war alongside a war how willing would the west be to continue support. Nevertheless, I am clinging to peace talks for the survival of Ukraine. I’m desperately hoping in the next few months we can all help Ukraine to rebuild & return home. Perhaps naive though

@EsmaCannonball

I think it also needs to be mentioned that a Russian bot tactic, if they are not winning the argument, is to turn threads and sites into vicious personal arguments and get them closed down, or to make them so toxic that people stop using them.

Quite. I've found these threads really helpful & informative - and yes, I do welcome people showing it's not entirely as clear cut as it sometimes appears to be. There can't be many of us who knew as much about Ukraine as we do now. But we've only learnt so much because people have been willing to take the time to explain. The tone has been mostly very respectful and supportive, which has been enormously helpful for those of us who have very real worries. I hope we can keep it that way.

I’m wondering why barrage balloons aren’t being donated to Ukraine. Even if there sole purpose was to prevent further bombing of cities like Mariupol & help civilians sustain a safe route out. Or use them around Kyiv to prevent bombing

Shuuu I had to google barrage balloons. Impressive looking things.

They would provide cover for low flying aircraft fire but I wonder whether they are any good against artillery in modern warfare. Would they take too long to set up. Will they be seen as NATO providing air cover to Ukraine.

Interesting idea. Wonder if any military types can comment.