Ukraine invasion discussion thread part 11

[ScatteredMama82]

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4499310-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-10?pg=40

Does Autocorrect know the difference between moral, morals and morale?

covid hasn't gone away and presumably is still circulating in Ukraine and people are still getting ill to a greater or lesser degree. The viral load of those sheltering in basements, fleeing on trains, is going to be high - I don't panic lots about covid but it seems like the perfect breeding ground for a new variant?

Ukraine is also one of the countries with the highest levels of multidrug resistant TB (1 of the top 10 in 2017, and it's unlikely it's shifted much since then given the number of conflicts in the area and impact of the healthcare system).

Multidrug-resistant TB (MDR-TB) is the disease caused by TB bacilli that are resistant to at least isoniazid and rifampicin – the two most powerful anti-TB drugs. It results from inconsistent or partial treatment of TB, and develops when public health programmes fail to deliver regular and reliable treatment to TB patients. The end of the Soviet state left the people in the newly independent states in Eastern Europe and the Russian Federation with uneven access to health care. According to a recent WHO report TB patients in parts of Eastern Europe and Central Asia are now ten times more likely to have MDR-TB than those in the rest of the world.

www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/treating-tuberculosis-in-ukraine

borgenproject.org/tuberculosis-in-ukraine/

According to Reuters Belarus are looking at sending in specialists to ensure the power supply at Chernobyl: www.reuters.com/world/europe/lukashenko-orders-belarusian-specialists-ensure-power-supply-chernobyl-plant-2022-03-10/

At least three of the journalists still in Kyiv were in a bar last night. I don’t know if any mainstream media are still in Kyiv or if they’ve already all left. The west of the country is safer at the minute, I hope it stays that way but sure now that it won’t.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Replace the political party’s in the poem
With Georgia, Syria, east Ukraine, individuals killed here etc etc.

He has the high ground on bot farms, info wars and promoting the extremes to stir up western instability.

People who think “war” is only war if it involves bombs are very naive. I wish it was that simple.

I’m sure back in the early 1940s British people didn’t want to go to war because it was over there and not here. Did we wait until hitler was bombing London before we went in?

How many millions of people around the world must die before we think I don’t want my child to die in a war but I can’t keep watching. It’s worse now to watch than way back then, then they only had newspapers and radio to get info. Now we have the internet.

I think we should tell him out military will be forming defensive no fly zones to get civilians out.

But it’s not up to me. So all I can do is say I’m sorry to every country he’s already messed with. I didn’t know then. And I’m sorry Ukraine, we have let you down. We didn’t remember. We didn’t learn from the mistakes of the past.

@BeyondPurpleTulips

Has anyone else noticed that there seems to be an advance specifically towards the Southern Ukraine power station?

They will of course go for strategically important things. Nuclear plants are one. Take out the power and its harder for the Ukrainians to coordinate or find out whats happening. Plus its a major blow to moral. And there is the obvious nuclear thing. Once taken its hard for Ukrainians to retake because the staff are hostages and its essential they aren't killed cos the plant needs to continue to run. The Ukrainians will also be well aware of the strategic importance too though. But that means leaving other places with less defences.

@Memememememwmwm

At least three of the journalists still in Kyiv were in a bar last night. I don’t know if any mainstream media are still in Kyiv or if they’ve already all left. The west of the country is safer at the minute, I hope it stays that way but sure now that it won’t.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Replace the political party’s in the poem
With Georgia, Syria, east Ukraine, individuals killed here etc etc.

He has the high ground on bot farms, info wars and promoting the extremes to stir up western instability.

People who think “war” is only war if it involves bombs are very naive. I wish it was that simple.

I’m sure back in the early 1940s British people didn’t want to go to war because it was over there and not here. Did we wait until hitler was bombing London before we went in?

How many millions of people around the world must die before we think I don’t want my child to die in a war but I can’t keep watching. It’s worse now to watch than way back then, then they only had newspapers and radio to get info. Now we have the internet.

I think we should tell him out military will be forming defensive no fly zones to get civilians out.

But it’s not up to me. So all I can do is say I’m sorry to every country he’s already messed with. I didn’t know then. And I’m sorry Ukraine, we have let you down. We didn’t remember. We didn’t learn from the mistakes of the past.

What are your thoughts on nuclear weapons?

Putin won’t go there or something else

The Danish ex PM kicked Zahawi's arse!

@Ijsbear - re the transatlantic cables, I used to work in that industry (organising capacity to the landing stations). It's a long time since I was doing that (over a decade) but even then there was a plethora of massive capacity cables (being upgraded all the time) across the Atlantic from North America going via France, Ireland, UK, Greenland, Iceland and the Faroe Islands (and from them on to Scotland and Denmark).

Given the geographic distribution of all those cables and their landing stations, it would be a massive exercise to "cut off the internet" by cutting the cables. I'd suggest that a cyberattack would be "easier".

There is also back-up capacity on satellites.

www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/03/10/russian-prices-rising-fastest-in-24-years-on-ruble-collapse-a76858
Russian Prices Rising Fastest in 24 Years on Ruble Collapse

Weekly inflation came in at 2.2% between Feb. 26 and Mar. 4, according to data published by Russia’s Economy Ministry — the largest increase in prices over a seven-day period since 1998.

And

On an annual basis, inflation jumped to 9.2% in February, up from 8.7% a month earlier. Economists expect the pace of annual price rises will surpass 20% by the end of March.

Imported goods such as cars, household appliances, televisions and smartphones have seen the largest price increases since the war started. Prices for new cars jumped by more than 15% in a week on average.

Fears have also been raised over Russia’s reliance on imports for its crucial agricultural industry and even for basic household goods — 90% of potato seeds used in Russia are bought from overseas, for instance.

15% increase in a week on cars. 2.2% generally.

Hyperinflation on the way.

I’m sure back in the early 1940s British people didn’t want to go to war because it was over there and not here. Did we wait until hitler was bombing London before we went in?

We were already at war in the early 1940s. We entered WW2 in 1939.

I don't think you can compare WW2 to what is happening now. The world is utterly different and so is warfare.

news.sky.com/story/ukraine-war-what-is-the-wagner-group-of-secret-russian-mercenaries-12562034?dcmp=snt-sf-twitter

The group is believed to be funded by Yevgeny Prigozhin, a businessman with close links to Vladimir Putin who is also alleged to run Russia's "troll farm", the Internet Research Agency.

And

The European Union said Wagner was founded by Dmitry Utkin - a former Russian soldier reportedly adorned with Nazi tattoos.

It is said to have been named after Richard Wagner, Hitler's favourite composer.

The Wagner Group is privately owned but its management and operations are "deeply intertwined" with the Russian military and intelligence community, according to the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS), an American think tank.

The Russian armed forces reportedly provide the group with munitions and transport aircraft, and the head of Ukraine's security services has described it as a "private army of Putin".

The company has at least 6,000 employees and is said to be registered in Argentina, with offices in Saint Petersburg and Hong Kong.

Valery Zakharov, a former member of the Russian state security service, is "a key figure in the Wagner Group's command structure and keeps close links with the Russian authorities", according to the EU.

The Russian government denies any involvement with the group and insists it does not legally exist because private military contractors are not legal in Russia

And

The Wagner Group is said to be used by the Russian government in conflicts where plausible deniability is called for.

The use of these mercenaries - described as "ghost soldiers" - also allows Russia more secrecy about its military operations abroad and the number of losses.

Some believe that the organisation does not actually exist as a private company but is in reality a hidden branch of the Russian Ministry of Defence that reports to the Russian government.

Private security companies and private military companies are essentially "freelance soldiers" who can be hired cheaply and are more efficient than a regular military force because a small number of them can be deployed for a targeted operation, according to CSIS.

Article also says how 400 operatives from Wagner were sent to Kyiv to kill Zelensky.

I hear Truss likened it to 9/11 and is speaking today in US. Not sure what her general line is when she says get tougher. I’m glad US is in NATO and generally takes lead.

And that went well, didn't it? We went into Afghanistan supposedly to hunt down Bin Laden, who was eventually found holed up in Pakistan, and have just spent 20 years fighting there, leaving the country in a complete mess. The 9/1 1 perpetrators were Saudis but we are still happily allied to them.

I wish that Truss would learn to shut up until she learns a few history lessons. Or she could come on MN and spout off, (like we do!).

The Danish ex PM kicked Zahawi's arse!

Didn’t she just?!!! What crap was he talking about Russia being more scared of Britain than anyone else! And how were women and children refugees were a threat to U.K.!

It’s on iplayer now.

Further details on Abramovich sanctions:

Martyn Ziegler
@martynziegler
Massive news: Roman Abramovich sanctioned. All UK assets frozen. Chelsea can still operate under a special licence but sale now on hold. Club will not be allowed to sell any more tickets - only season ticketMartyn Ziegler
@martynziegler
·
34m
Replying to
@martynziegler
Also: no merchandise sales allowed; no player transfers or new contracts; catering services will be permitted. holders can go to games for the foreseeable future.

Should read 'only season ticket holders can go to games for foreseeable future'

Did we wait until hitler was bombing London before we went in?

Because Britain declared war on Germany when they invaded Poland. Had Britain not done so, it might well have been possible to keep out of the War. Hitler is supposed to have admired the British, (and he had enough enthusiastic followers in this country).

I feel sorry for anyone who might lose their job because of the sanctions on Abramovich but maybe football clubs will start taking a look at the ethics of potential owners in future.

Hmmm so talks came to nothing then?

'Ukrainian foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba has been speaking at a press conference following the latest round of talks today between Ukraine and Russia in Antalya, Turkey.
Kuleba says the two sides agreed to continue efforts to seek a solution to the humanitarian issues on the ground in Ukraine.
He says he would be ready to meet again "in this format if there are prospects for a substantial discussion and seeking solutions"

I hope I misheard but I think that the Ukrainian negotiator in Turkey said that the Russians had no interest in stopping the invasion. However he has asked for a 24 hour ceasefire so that Mauriopol can be evacuated. They are going to check with Moscow if that's possible

Sorry cross posted

Lavrov is going on about -

Civilians being human shields

US sponsored chemical/ labs in Ukraine

Ultra-radical mercenaries operating in Ukraine

The Azov Battalion operating out of the maternity hospital that the Russians bombed

(He's basically at the point where he should have a Mini-Me.)

If you were in Mariupol, would you trust another ceasefire? Knowing how the other two(? three? I've actually lost count!) went?

This guy gets this wrong initially and then corrects. Put the whole thing here as actually the error is useful to show the problem and point.

My suspicion is he wasn't immediately sanctioned because of fears of how it would go down with the public (public support was for sanctions but not quite enough to consider taking out a premier league club in practice).

For me it shows the creep on public opinion and how the government have to manage it without upsetting the public in the process. There needs to be enough horror and anger to do this without too much backlash. Even Chelsea Fans will struggle to argue against it at this point I think.

Nick Harris @sportingintel
The formal sanctioning of Roman Abramovich. Chelsea can play but can no longer sell tickets or merchandise. So many Qs: presumably can’t sell players? Can’t sell pints? Can’t repay Fordstam? Makes club sale impossible.

That’s a pretty damming government assessment of Abramovich’s closeness to the Kremlin, and Usmanov. So why has it taken the British government this long to act?

Also, ANY Chelsea income is Abramovich income, and thus frozen. Including TV cash presumably, from the PL. If the freeze is instant, and serious, then no income means limited outgoings. A club’s biggest outgoing: player wages. How long before they stop?

Ok, so day to day operations including paying wages are allowed. Odd that ticket sales and merchandise sales banned. A momentous day, in a bad way for Chelsea. Precise ramifications tbc

I do think we will see more creep on stuff like this as this becomes all encompassing to our economy.

I think this is important to understand as it shows how we are all being gradually sucked into this already whether we admit it or not. Or whether we want it or not.

The concepts of industrial warfare and total warfare (Russia is about to go into both I think) are relevant here. Industrial warfare was supposed to have ended with nuclear weapons but its kind of hard to reconcil that with where we currently are.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_warfare
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_war

Arguably sanctions are indeed economic warfare and we are lying siege to Russia...

The example of Chelsea perhaps is going to highlight how its going to be on a doorsteps a lot quicker than even how fuel prices are going to filter through.

Lavrov on TV now, pushing the line about biological weapons being developed in Ukraine, complicit with Washington.

@MarshaBradyo I don’t think he will go to all out mass firing of nuclear weapons. I wouldn’t put it past him to use tactical nukes in Ukraine or possibly on a nato country as a demo of “look I can do this if you don’t go away and let me carry on” . I think first when will unleash the horror of chemical/biological weapons at Kyiv. Then carry on threatening with the nuclear plants, perhaps deliberately let Chernobyl leak as that’s farther away from Russia and will affect him less. if we still haven’t backed down I suspect other non nato countries will be next for testing out boundaries. This may take years, he needs to rebuild his conventional army around all the testing of our boundaries. But he’s in it for the long game, he started this many, many years ago.

I don’t think he wants to destroy the world. But do think he will go right to the edge of that in his efforts to make the world let him do as he wants.