How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

I can't believe people are still peddling out this antiquated crap about 'Mummy's boys', are they DM readers by any chance, apply some intellectual scrutiny to your choice of words and see how this thinking leads to the state we are in.

@Thereisnolight

If half a million men are killed there can still be as many babies born to replace them. If half a million women are killed (probably would be more as they are physically slower and weaker) then fewer babies will be born. Did you or your sons ever learn biology OP?

This is the crux of it. Women are required to continue the population but far fewer men are needed. I would hope that in the UK conscription would be for men only.

In our society young men are generally disposable. That's part of the way the patriarchy works (the downside for men if you like). That's why young women killed equals great tragedy, young man - well what can you expect.

This is lovely comment to pass onto a parent of a daughter and son.

@Boxowine

It’s very odd to me that the focus of this debate is whether or not the women of Ukraine are somehow being oppressed by the implementation emergency conscription policies of a country under attack, rather than the victims of war crimes.

I see no similar expressions of concern for the women of Russia. What are the conscription policies of the invading army? Is Russia providing equal opportunity for women to participate in the destruction of a peaceful nation and murder innocent civilians?

I think the OP was click bait.

@Goldenbear

Do we have to accept the status quo with the 'patriarchy' then? Flippantly dismissing young lives lost as the patriarchy is just a comment on society but is doesn't change anything for the better.

I don't think anyone is suggesting this but there are thousands of issues that affect women due to patriarchy but this is the one women should fight for? If men want equality at war let them get equality everywhere first.

That might come across as flippant but I don't see why it's womens fault that the inequality also bites men on the arse too. It's an issue that is rare so some boys are crying about how unfair it is so we should snap to fixing it? How about we fix the issues women have to face day-to-day first?

I would hope that humanity wakes up to the reality of their thought processes where death is the outcome for someone's child but you're right Jack I mean WTF! So flippant about human life!

In a war crisis situation nuance goes out of the window. Tailoring conscription to individual domestic situations is impossible. So the basic premise is that it is likely the women will have caring roles for elderly or children and therefore the men must do the fighting. They're will be some men who have caring roles for whom this is disastrous or they have to ask others to help.
But that's just the conscription decision. Actually women have taken up arms in Ukraine by choice. So you can show your boys that.

Well I'm afraid biology exists. Most girls won't be hindered by periods but SOME will. Some girls will pass military physicals but actually most won't.

It's basic biology.

Funny, the Ukranian men didn't need explaining.

Krivoy Rog mayor posted a few days ago ''If you are a man who tried to escape, happy international womens day you sissy''

In ukraine, women work, but their place is still considered to be in the kitchen.

Feminist groups exist in ukraine, but Ukraine is a traditional, conservative country with gender roles.

As a woman in ukraine, your role is to cook, clean and birth children. You are considered useless/worthless if you dont. There's even a saying, if you a bad cook, are you even a woman?

And if youre a man and say how unfair it is, you would be shamed because mens job is to protect.

The mayor of another city replied to girls in army uniforms on social media, get back into the kitchen and some men commented they will be a liability.

So if you dont cook, clean and not birthing children, you are not a woman there. ( keep in mind, you are also expected to work, not like housewives in the 1950)

If you don't protect your home you are considered not a man.

Source: My brother in law is Ukranian.

@overtherubicon

Oh well, if Putin says that he will never use conscripts then we must certainly take him at his word. All of his soldiers must have volunteered for this mission. Surprisingly, they all seem to be male.

Perhaps we can encourage NATO to withhold any further measures of support until Ukraine starts conscripting women. I believe there are still some maternity patients sheltering in the basement of their hospitals who could possibly be engaged. That might assuage the concerns of the OP’s children about gender specific conscription policies. Then we can start focusing on the armed forces’s gender pay gap and lack of paid child care during the emergency.

In normal day-to-day life, women more than pull their weight. I can't understand the fuss about them making less of a contribution in warfare tbh.

... because military service in time of war isn't quite the same has throwing the vacuum round, dropping the kids off or loading the washing machine, is it ?????? .^

WTF did i just read there (italics not bold). There are plenty of women who are doing far more than vacuuming and washing (which is legitimate work that needs to be done). WTF is wrong with this place sometimes?

As for calling men sissys? that is because under the Patriarchy the worst thing you can call a man is a woman. Which is as much toxic masculinity as you can shake a stick at and a large part of many problems we have today. Including the manly-willy-waving-wars Putin provokes.

I have daughters and a son.

I would tell them the truth.

Boys and girls are equal in some things, they could be equal in a lot more and probably will be in years to come but they are not equal in everything.

Men and women are equal in mental ability. Very few women can match the physical strength of men, that isn’t sexist it’s reality.

And as for conscripting both men and women to fight in a war, if both were conscripted who would stay behind to look after the children? It makes sense to conscript the physically stronger to fight.

Let’s not sugar coat war, it’s brutal, it’s not about equality, it’s about sending the young, fit and able to fire weapons and kill until a war is considered won.

People in eastern europe understand basic biology and that men and women are built different.

Which is why they don't have craziness like Lia Thomas and pronoun nonsense.

Ukranians are not stupid, you think they havent though of conscipitng women when they are so desperate to win???

They know better. Women right now in Ukraine are expected to be caring for the sick, elderly, injured, orphans, making/fixing/sewing clothes, getting aid, cooking, delivering meals, feeding those in bomb shelters and soldiers, helping with equipment/weapons etc

Where is the OP?

@Goldenbear

Where is the OP?

On the front line?

😂

As for calling men sissys? that is because under the Patriarchy the worst thing you can call a man is a woman. Which is as much toxic masculinity as you can shake a stick at and a large part of many problems we have today. I don't find 'manly' men toxic at all. Ideally we want courageous men and women. In times of war, brave and decisive men who can defend their country, handle a shot gun and heavy equipment if necessary, all this does not mean they treat women without respect, on the contrary. I have found that in the UK, it's lefty, liberal, 'right on' men who are the most disrespectful and sexist but also often the most useless at anything related to survival in hostile conditions.

On this note, All youths should do 6-12 month national service with a choice between army training and working in care homes, hospitals, school, agriculture.

We should raise our girls and boys to be more hardy and give them the skills to fend for themselves in challenging circumstances.

Men with their physical superior bodies are terrified to be conscpted and if there was a way to get out of it, they absolutely would.....( Trump is one of many and I cant blame him ) but when women who are weaker and stand no chance against a man and are at a higher risk of sexual assault express their concerns and just like men dont want to....its suddenly.........''thats unfairrrrr, combat not that bad, you dont even need strength, its just pressing a button, no gooooooooo, and if you have a problem with that, you are not equal.......that means, you deserve no rights thennnn..''

It's not fair for anyone to be forced to fight in bankers' wars.

Boys and girls are not equal in all things though. Men are physically stronger, on the whole, as you pointed out yourself. And rather than asking 'why can't women be forced to kill as well' why not ask 'why can't no one be forced to kill?'

slashlover
So I quoted part of the PP and added my own interpretation to the rest. I do apologise for confusing you. To quote someone else, if the UK were to be invaded the historical footnote would be "thus it ended, not with a bang, but a whimper" because we couldn't possibly react like the Ukrainians have. We would be too busy nominating Tsars ( ironic, no ?)to ensure diversity was adequately catered for , health and safety was duly enacted and that no one would be permitted to crush a flower in an AOONB or damage the habitat of a rare toad. Meantime we would have been over run.

I have found that in the UK, it's lefty, liberal, 'right on' men who are the most disrespectful and sexist but also often the most useless at anything related to survival in hostile conditions.

Absolutely agree

I think you’ve made a rod for your own back really. Infantry is mainly men, women are mainly caregivers.
Yes they have guns but men can run faster generally and are stronger (which you need to be to carry all the gear)

Tell them that the women are making molotovs, looking after children and helping in other ways as it’s always been men called to fight due to being stronger and faster and women contribute in other ways.

Roles based on sex are real because sex is real. It's not progress to deny this, it will only bring confusion. Traditional sex-based roles work because of biology. It's not difficult to explain. Men and women are different. Having said that, as I've stated, no one should be conscripted because no one is defending anything, all wards are bankers' wars.

@Luredbyapomegranate

There’s a whole other thread that covers a lot of this.

The first thing is to tell them is that few people want to kill, but because there’s been an invasion, the government is conscripting as the UK did in WW2. And just as the UK then, the first priority is frontline fighters. If the war (god forbid) goes on, wider groups are likely to be conscripted, including women without kids.

Secondly, lot of women are staying to fight or support by running things like power stations. If they are mothers that means leaving to drop off their kids with relatives in neighbouring countries and coming back. The story of all women leaving is being over emphasised.

The reasons women are not conscripted for frontline frighting are:

• no one would want children to loose both parents
• women carry most caring responsibilities for older relatives also
• countries (and once upon a time tribes) need to prioritise the survival of young women, because they will carry the next generation. You just don’t need as many young men.

• some women are strong enough to pass eg US/UK Marine entry tests, but far fewer than men, so they aren’t as effective as front line troops
• countries that do conscript women tend to use them as support troops. This may well happen in Ukraine.
• women are vulnerable in a war zone because rape is used as a weapon of war (if you want to explain all this to them, you can’t avoid this). Rape is an effective weapon because it demoralises the whole community and makes a country easier to defeat. This means that women and men are concerned about women being in a war zone. (Just for your info Previous threads include an article stating that pornhub already has a section on the rape of Ukrainian girls, which appears to be footage uploaded by Russian troops. Also been reports that only 5 of the 11 women know about have survived it.)

• As the war develops we’ll hear a lot more about women who have stayed to help the war effort. Some of these women will be killing directly, others will do so indirectly by keeping infrastructure going, eg working power stations just as women in the UK did in WW2

Lots of UN reports explain how women’s economic and physical health is impacted more than men’s overall, because they are more vulnerable to the economic and social breakdown that comes before and after it. So women have a a very rough time in war, it’s just not visible in the same way.

Hope this helps

Rape is a really important point here, the book "The War on Women " covers it and it's horrific reading. Not just the act itself but as you point out the after effect on mum, child and the community, assuming they haven't been banished.