How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

Well, it's not fair or equal, is it? A man's life worth less than a woman's? Imagine the opposite. Hope this is not replicated in the UK, where there are plenty of women in the armed forces and AFAIK women in the armed forces go to conflict zones also.

Porn hub though Jesus Christ those poor girls

I don’t feel comfortable saying that actually women can’t go onto the forces because they are physically weaker and have periods - I don’t think that it holds weight as an argument anymore.

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Could you expand on this OP?

Do your sons think its unfair when men find loopholes/escape/are draft dodgers?

A Ukranian man a few days ago escaped from Ukraine with his new american fiancee, they asked him to stay but he got away.

And Sofia Rotaru ( Ukranian pop singer ) sons tried escaping conscription by boat.

What's their opinion about these men??

@nepotismisrife

Life isn’t fair - fact.

Most men are physically stronger than most women - fact

More women are needed to rebuild a population after a war than men - fact

Women are more at risk of rape during wars - fact

Women are overwhelmingly still the primary caregiver to children and elderly relatives - fact

@nepotismisrife

Well, it's not fair or equal, is it? A man's life worth less than a woman's? Imagine the opposite. Hope this is not replicated in the UK, where there are plenty of women in the armed forces and AFAIK women in the armed forces go to conflict zones also.

So so many posts explaining why it's not this simple if you care to read them

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back.

It does hold some women back though. I spent my teens not being able to eat due to constant vomiting the first two days while I couldn't even stand upright because of the pain. It is important that they know that some women are badly affected and do need some extra consideration.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER

IMO we in the U.K. (at least those of us who’ve never served with the military in e.g. Afghanistan) are so comfortably removed from the brutal realities of warfare, that it’s all too easy to pontificate very virtuously about the likes of gender roles in such devastating circumstances.

God this. So much this.

It does hold some women back though

Can you imagine being in the middle of war and trying to find a time and place to change your tampon

[quote BigOlDingleSlinger69]@ChocolateMassacre

The point is they are all for pushing for men to take up more slack in women’s roles and think it bad and unfair when people argue that men shouldnt - yet here we have some children thinking it’s unfair that women not take up a male role and they are dead against it and think it’s unfair that women be expected too.

Unless your only concerned with women and not men the obvious point is that it’s very hypocritical to want men to take up women’s roles for the good of women, but are offended by the idea that women be asked to take up men’s roles when those roles are unpleasant.

Personally I don’t care and don’t think they belong there and would just get in the way in the main and are better off getting the children safe. But if someone is very gung ho on men being equal in child rearing etc - it’s a little rich to take that attitude.[/quote]
It's chicken before the egg, though.

Men would need to be willing to take on 24/7 responsibility for childcare/domestic work BEFORE women were able to go and fight.

Very few are.

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

I will copy and paste your post again below, because it is one of the best posts I have seen here on this topic. I'd love to hear what @MiniDaffodils and her sons would have to say. It's not fair? Men's lives matter less than women's? That is ignorant nonsense.

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The first thing is to tell them is that few people want to kill, but because there’s been an invasion, the government is conscripting as the UK did in WW2. And just as the UK then, the first priority is frontline fighters. If the war (god forbid) goes on, wider groups are likely to be conscripted, including women without kids.

Secondly, lot of women are staying to fight or support by running things like power stations. If they are mothers that means leaving to drop off their kids with relatives in neighbouring countries and coming back. The story of all women leaving is being over emphasised.

The reasons women are not conscripted for frontline frighting are:

• no one would want children to loose both parents
• women carry most caring responsibilities for older relatives also
• countries (and once upon a time tribes) need to prioritise the survival of young women, because they will carry the next generation. You just don’t need as many young men.

• some women are strong enough to pass eg US/UK Marine entry tests, but far fewer than men, so they aren’t as effective as front line troops
• countries that do conscript women tend to use them as support troops. This may well happen in Ukraine.
• women are vulnerable in a war zone because rape is used as a weapon of war (if you want to explain all this to them, you can’t avoid this). Rape is an effective weapon because it demoralises the whole community and makes a country easier to defeat. This means that women and men are concerned about women being in a war zone. (Just for your info Previous threads include an article stating that pornhub already has a section on the rape of Ukrainian girls, which appears to be footage uploaded by Russian troops. Also been reports that only 5 of the 11 women know about have survived it.)

• As the war develops we’ll hear a lot more about women who have stayed to help the war effort. Some of these women will be killing directly, others will do so indirectly by keeping infrastructure going, eg working power stations just as women in the UK did in WW2

Lots of UN reports explain how women’s economic and physical health is impacted more than men’s overall, because they are more vulnerable to the economic and social breakdown that comes before and after it. So women have a a very rough time in war, it’s just not visible in the same way.

@nepotismisrife

Well, it's not fair or equal, is it? A man's life worth less than a woman's? Imagine the opposite. Hope this is not replicated in the UK, where there are plenty of women in the armed forces and AFAIK women in the armed forces go to conflict zones also.

Read the thread. And generally inform yourself.

There are many perfectly good reasons why women don't get conscripted as front line troops, most of which are listed above.

There are not plenty of women serving as front line troops in the UK or anywhere. Only a limited number of women have the physical strength to pass the entrance tests.

The idea it means a man's life is worth less is drivel of the highest order.

In total war situations where fighting is absolutely everywhere, it makes sense to give women a gun (in fact, it may make sense to give older kids a gun too)--because the war will come and find them even if they are not looking for it.

Where fighting is "organized," there are a lot of reasons why most countries are very reluctant to put women into ground close combat, one of which is that before you know it, you can end up with young women behind enemy lines. Their birth control will probably be thrown away or removed and there is a high chance they will be raped. Then you've got pregnant women behind enemy lines. Then you've got mothers and babiesbabies that are your country's citizensbehind enemy lines....

Another issue is the incredible amount of stuff that infantrymen and the like have to carry. I am told that a 70 pound pack is considered light. Now imagine carrying that and marching for hours....and running...and carrying said pack above your head while you wade through a river, and then somehow scrambling up the bank on the other side with it strapped to you. Now imagine that the guy next to you is shot and injured and fallssomehow you have to carry or drag him out of dangerwith his pack laced to him--while also carrying all your own stuff, ideally with one arm so that you can cover fire with the other arm.

Not easy for even a very fit woman.

Women are also much more likely to suffer severe injuries than men--physical and psychological. Catastrophic injuries to the skull, neck, spine and whatnot happen much more easily in women. There is also strong evidence that women are more likely to develop PTSD when exposed to the same level of combat stress. When people get badly injured like this it is extremely expensive for the militiary and society to deal with.

War requires loads and loads of work that is not ground close combat--admin and driving about and medical stuff and of course carrying on all the economic activities that still need to go on (and that includes household stuff, food prep and caring for children and elderly). I doubt we will ever see countries choosing to put women into ground close combat no matter what the situation, because in a war there is always so much work to do (most of it not direct combat) and it nearly always makes sense for women to do that instead.

Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight

Where did you get that from?

I'm married to a Ukrainian man. Ukrainians do have quite a clearly delineated perception of male and female roles, and from what I see, they actually value typically "female" roles much more than we do in the UK, and have a lot more benefits available specifically for women with several children than we do, and very generous maternity leave. So even though it's kind of assumed that in a war the men fight while the women care for the vulnerable, the latter role is seen as equally if not more valuable a contribution. I remember when we first got married, my DH freaked out when I wanted to help move the sofa - it was like an insult to him that he would make a woman do heavy lifting . Women's Day is also huge in Ukraine and I'm always inundated with messages from our Ukrainian friends and family on 8th March, with not a peep from my English friends!

I don't have a problem with any of this, and I think that us trying to impose our "patriarchal" framework on their society is a form of cultural imperialism.

I always get choked up when I remember footage from the Maidan revolution showing the female protesters huddled in the middle, singing the national anthem, while the men stood around them to protect them from the police, who were beating them with metal batons.

I don't find 'manly' men toxic at all.

It's fine if you don't understand what "toxic masculinity" is. Just ask.

By patriarchal framework, I mean this lens through which many people in the West view the world, that we live in an oppressive patriarchal society. Imposing that worldview on another country, with its own distinct history and culture, is cultural imperialism.

@ChocolateMassacre

Is it? Seems more that when men are asked to take up more childcare etc. it’s viewed as unfair if they don’t and women are right to ask empathy and sympathy of their position. But until things have been made absolutely perfect for women in this regard women should never consider taking up the slack of men with empathy in the same way. And any assumption that they should is met with raised heckles. At least that seems to be the POV of many here.

How can you ask for help and empathy with your position and hope to make it better while becoming indignant at the suggestion you should do the same for another?
There seems to be far more feeling than thought behind it and it just seems that much like men, women aren’t want to give up their privileges when it suits them no matter how hard they bang the drum of equality at other times.

But like I said, I don’t care as IMO the simple reason women aren’t fighting is because they aren’t nearly as good or natural at it and will give up easier when death is likely - hence no female freedom fighters in Afghanistan fighting to the heroic death. It’s got nothing to do with replenishing the population as a conscious choice or any of those other justifications, it’s a matter of basic instinct - and basic instinct is what comes out in times like a war which is out of control.

Firstly, tell them that feminism believes neither sex should fight wars.

You're confusing, possibly intentionally, two important issues.

If they don't know already, tell your children that women are men are physically different: Men have superior upper body strength & are generally taller & heavier, women do have superior endurance but carry & give birth to babies & generally are prime carers of children. Men are expected to fight due to this difference, along with the societal gender expectation that men are more aggressive. Women are not because of gender expectations of passivity but also because of their child caring role.
In the reports from Ukraine, you'll have noticed that most of the women who left while the men stayed, were accompanying children.

Personally I prefer a more manly man type...if push came to shove, I don't want to fight. If we were at home and there was an intruder, I'd expect dh to deal with it. I don't want him to be skulking behind me! The Ukrainian men certainly appear to be pretty tough types on the whole.

At least 100,000 women are believed to have been raped in Berlin, based on surging abortion rates in the following months and contemporary hospital reports, with an estimated 10,000 women dying in the aftermath. Female deaths in connection with the rapes in Germany, overall, are estimated at 240,000.

@dworky

It isn’t just a societal gender expectation that men are more aggressive, they actually are more aggressive because of the huge amount of testosterone they have compared to women.
It’s f you start to give women testosterone supplements in high dose they become more aggressive and different emotionally as well as studies have shown.

DS asked about it and I told him that while the men were being told to stay to fight, because most of the military or those with experience would be men, many women are also choosing to stay. Someone has to take the elderly and kids out of the war zone and that job is falling to many women.
And if we were at war then women would be called to fight too.

Personally I feel that younger women should have been told to stay to fight, if they didn’t have kids, rather than men up to 60 but it’s a different culture there.

"Do your sons think its unfair when men find loopholes/escape/are draft dodgers?

A Ukranian man a few days ago escaped from Ukraine with his new american fiancee, they asked him to stay but he got away.

And Sofia Rotaru ( Ukranian pop singer ) sons tried escaping conscription by boat.

What's their opinion about these men??"

Do we not believe in a right to choose not to fight, so? Easy to suggest from the comfort of your home that you think they're doing the wrong thing. If we believe in human rights and the right to choose in other instances, surely a human should have the right to choose whether they go out to fight?