How are you explaining to your boys about only men being conscripted in Ukraine?

[MiniDaffodils]

I have both girls and boys. We have always brought them up to understand that whilst boys may be physically stronger, girls can undertake the same roles in anything as boys can.
My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.
I think they are imagining themselves in that same situation. Obviously I have explained in this country both men and women would be called up to fight. My boys are gentle souls and the thought of only men having to kill others is disturbing them.
My girls are relieved at the idea that women in Ukraine are not called to fight despite usually them being very vocal about the fact boys and girls are equal in all things.
My main question is how to explain this to my sons, rather than my daughters (who don’t seem as bothered by the issue).
Thanks

@Londoner256

OP: My boys are upset at the thought that only men are being made to fight in Ukraine and not women. They think it’s very unfair.

I think it's 'very unfair' that male violence is overwhelmingly responsible for the vast majority of war, conflict, fighting, aggression, physical abuse, and rape across the whole planet, throughout the whole of history!

To spare their tender ignorant feelings, best educate your sons about female conscription in Ukraine

Come on, we have child soldiers in many parts of the world. (Which is abhorrent).

Im only just over 5ft

There are kids at my sons primary school bigger than me.

The average woman in the UK is 5'4".

Even the child solider idea is problematic on this argument over physicality in many cases.

Are we going to extend this argument to one where we suggest that anyone over a certain height should fight because thats fair and what happens in certain parts of the world? Fantastic race to the bottom argument there.

@hotpinkkettle

No the able bodied men have the unfair advantage. Women are disadvantaged by this.

How so? The generally stronger (by no fault of their own) males are forced to stay and fight while the generally weaker females get a choice whether to or not.

Isn’t having a choice an advantage?

No my post said that we are not all equal. To make us all equal we need to be given adjustments. The adjustment for women is because we are not all physically the same, we are more likely to be raped and forcibly impregnated. So by not forcibly conscripting us and giving us the choice then that allows us to be on more of an equal footing. I don’t think this gives us an advantage. We start off terribly disadvantaged and by giving us the choice that can begin to somewhat balance the playing field.

Just like myself as a disabled person who gets a lot more help and adjustments at work doesn’t mean I’m advantaged. It’s trying to start me on the same footing as an able bodied person. Women are not the same as men. Forcing them to go to war just like men does not make them equal, nor does giving them the choice but it’s a hell of a lot better than forcing them too when we are weaker and at higher risk of horrific and prolonged crimes. This needs to be recognised.

You should tell them it's cos men are physically superior, but that it is wrong and nobody should be forced to kill and die.

I can hold my own with a man mentally. I have a desk job, and I'm good at it.

I would lose in a fight.

As a woman, who was born a woman, I am weaker. That's a fact. I have a lower muscle percentage. I'm shorter than most men too. Sure, some are about my height, but there are many a whole foot taller than me, with the additional strength and speed (from increased stride) that you'd expect.

Maybe I could compensate for much of this by doing intensive specialist training. But let's face it - I would have had to have started decades ago, and been doing it regularly ever since. You can't decide to fight back against physical inequality overnight - and as an ordinary person who has only ever lived in peacetime, it hasn't been a consideration for me. I'm just not battle ready.

Honestly? If I could flee, would I? I'd like to say I'd stay and do something useful that didn't involve combat, but I bet most of us would escape if we thought we could. Humans are programmed with a strong survival instinct, and I know I don't have the physical strengths to win in a one-to-one fight, let alone a full-scale war.

I am amazed by the incredible Ukrainian women who are choosing to fight, and who are helping to defend their country. I can guarantee you that the women of this country would not be so willing or capable.

I have so much admiration and respect for the people of Ukraine, but I'm also devastated that they're in this position. I just don't understand how it's 2022, everyone knows what's happening, and the most the West are doing is putting trade sanctions in place.

Sanctions are civilised. War is... not.

I think your boys need to understand thats how it is, that men are physically stronger than women and always will be and that woman usually look after the children

However those women who don’t have kids can often sign up

But if they want equality will they be pulling their weight at home? Cos looking at the posts on here-the great majority don't, it falls to the woman, the great majority believe their job is more important that the wives job

It’s how it is,

if you conscript an entire generation, and a large percentage of them get killed.. who is holding up the country while they're gone? Who is keeping things running, who is repopulating?

It makes no societal sense to send women to war. If you want to wipe a people out, kill the young women of child bearing age because then there are no babies, and you end up with a huge generational gap til the children currently alive are old enough to work, old enough to reproduce.

Tell them to research the Womens Land Army of WW2.

Maybe introduce the concept of pacifism— your boys should be prepared to fight only to defend their country (as in the Ukraine) but notif their country was the aggressor (Russia).
In wartime everyone is expected to do their “bit”. In the last two World Wars both sexes not involved in fighting carried out work that supported the war effort.. My mother was quite young and was directed from her work as a nanny to work in a factory making paper fuel tanks for planes.
Some women had dangerous work in ammunition factories.

I think 'life isn't fair' should suffice

@HotPenguin

Even in the UK, women can't go into close combat roles. Since they are expecting close combat in ukraine it isn't really any different to what would happen in the UK. In urban warfare, how fast you can run and how strong you are is important so men do have a distinct advantage over women.

This is not true, the ban on women serving in close combat in the British Army was lifted in 2016, followed by the Marines & RAF Regiment in 2017 (from what I remember).

www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2018/10/women-in-ground-close-combat-roles/

If this country went to war again, women would be fighting on the frontline ( vis the regular army )

Having equality isn't about everyone being treated the same, it's about understanding people are different (and that includes the biology of men and women) and allowing society to fairly make adjustments.

Yes, OP... a period shouldn't "hold you back" but the fact is that for many women a period can be a difficult time and for many our hormone fluctuations can effect us differently throughout the month. Equality would mean acknowledging that periods can be difficult and allowing adjustments without causing any unfair disadvantages.

Men and women are different but equal.

Men have advantages in some areas and women have them in others.

Historically the problem has been that we have seen men's powers as more important than women's powers.

I think you’ve brought them up with rose tinted spectacles on. There’s a difference between what you want to be true and what is actually true. Children don’t benefit from fairytales.

Where is the OP? Have they come back to answer this question or does the question read like a news article headline to capture your thoughts and terrify you about your own 'boys' your own children! I am teaching my kids about the futility of war personally seen as I have no real experience of it and i have no right to say whose life is and isn't disposable- pp suggesting the academic reasons are that boys/men are disposable. I visited Normandy with my Grandad in 1994 as he collected a medal from the local Mayor due to being Involved in the DD landings. My Grandad didn't even want to go it was my Dad who encouraged him. He didn't go to the ceremony as a result of these feelings about it, he collected it in the Mayor's office. My lasting memory from that trip of my fairly stiff upper lip Grandad, strong man, was the tear running down his cheek when we visited Gold beach where he landed- i never had seen him cry and I never did again. He always wanted to forget the war, never really talked about it but always told me that he didn't feel hatred towards the Germans he was fighting as they were young men like him and they had no choice. That's not to say he would expect my Grandma to take his place but that's not really the point.

In our society young men are generally disposable. That's part of the way the patriarchy works (the downside for men if you like). That's why young women killed equals great tragedy, young man - well what can you expect.

It’s very odd to me that the focus of this debate is whether or not the women of Ukraine are somehow being oppressed by the implementation emergency conscription policies of a country under attack, rather than the victims of war crimes.

I see no similar expressions of concern for the women of Russia. What are the conscription policies of the invading army? Is Russia providing equal opportunity for women to participate in the destruction of a peaceful nation and murder innocent civilians?

Bit harsh calling some children mummy’s boys as they only care about their gaming chair and snacks. Gender equality is not situation specific. We either want it in all situations and accept all conditions that go with this or we continue to face inequality. Men are equally capable of looking after and caring for children and I hope that in our country we have progressed and we would recognise this and leave it to parental choice! Not all families have a mum so what happens to those for example? Women are also equally capable of defending their country as our men. So I understand why this is hard and I hear the same question from my daughters. Equality is the only way to thrive.

Phrases like 'Mummy's Boys' are what gets us in to this shit in the first place.

@Loijki

Having equality isn't about everyone being treated the same, it's about understanding people are different (and that includes the biology of men and women) and allowing society to fairly make adjustments.

Yes, OP... a period shouldn't "hold you back" but the fact is that for many women a period can be a difficult time and for many our hormone fluctuations can effect us differently throughout the month. Equality would mean acknowledging that periods can be difficult and allowing adjustments without causing any unfair disadvantages.

So how does this work in the Navy ? Women have served on board Naval ships since the 90’s, and can spend months at sea, With UK naval ships (and subs) regularly deployed to war zones

@Boxowine

It’s very odd to me that the focus of this debate is whether or not the women of Ukraine are somehow being oppressed by the implementation emergency conscription policies of a country under attack, rather than the victims of war crimes.

I see no similar expressions of concern for the women of Russia. What are the conscription policies of the invading army? Is Russia providing equal opportunity for women to participate in the destruction of a peaceful nation and murder innocent civilians?

Astonishing whataboutery here.

Even a brief Google would reveal that Russian conscripts are not used in combat, and Putin has committed not to use them (no doubt because that might turn the tide of public sentiment).

Even if they did, I would argue that conscripted young people forced to join a war are also victims, male or female.

My contraceptive pill stops my period 🤔

@Rosehugger
I don't see how this is relevant. Women have to pass the same tests as men to join the armed forces.

This is not true. The time for running a mile and a half as a 20 something woman was slower than it was for a late 40's man. Then the push ups in 2 minutes was less than a 40's man. I aimed for the mens figures but came up short in terms of the run.

I have brought them up to think that periods shouldn’t hold any one back
Well for a start this isn’t true for most women world over.

Women are fighting in Ukraine, in a variety of different capacities. Just tell them that.

Do we have to accept the status quo with the 'patriarchy' then? Flippantly dismissing young lives lost as the patriarchy is just a comment on society but is doesn't change anything for the better.

It’s basic statistics and pragmatism. In general men are stronger and better fighters than women. But a few women are better than some men. In war, you don’t have time to examine each case individually - so they do policies like this.

That said - I would encourage all my kids in pacifism - if they don’t have dependents, I would hope they would stay to help with medical care, fire fighting and getting civilians out of cities. You can be a pacifist and brave.