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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

996 replies

cakeorwine · 07/03/2022 19:53

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

OP posts:
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17
RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 21:58

Whats David Cameron done this time?

Ali Rogin @AliRogin
@joshrogin talked to the leader of Syria's Civil Defense (White Helmets), who hadchilling advice for Ukrainians: "Do not give GPS locations of medical facilities to the U.N., which may claim it needs the information to keep them safe. The Russians will use that information"

www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/08/syria-white-helmets-want-to-help-ukraine-against-russian-military/
The Syrian White Helmets are ready to help Ukraine

“We are here to help our Ukrainian brothers and sisters in any way we can,” Raed Al Saleh, the leader of the White Helmets, told me in an interview. Putin’s goal is to break the will of the civilian population, he said, and there are no limits to the savagery of his troops. “The Russian military has no principles. They respect no human rights. They have no standards or ethics,” Saleh said. “The Ukrainians are facing the most ferocious, unethical, criminal killing machine that exists in the world today, which we have been facing for the last seven years.”

The White Helmets are preparing a series of videos to help Ukrainian civilians learn civil defense tasks, such as how to handle unexploded rockets or how best to evacuate a building under attack. They are also preparing lists of supplies and equipment Ukrainian rescue and evacuation teams will need. They’re even ready to send in staff.

Meanwhile, Ukrainians can learn from the White Helmets’ experience. Saleh recommends, for example, that the Ukrainians organize their civil defense forces inside each city by separating them into small teams of four or five people, dispersed geographically with small, quick vehicles that can easily speed to an attack site. Don’t establish any large or permanent headquarters, he warned, because they, too, will become targets for Russian bombs.

Short-range walkie-talkies are best for communications, he said, rather than cellular or Internet communications, which can be tracked by the Russians and might not work in an attack zone anyway. Also, some team members should be deployed to monitor the skies for planes, because that’s often a better early warning system than radars or sirens.

Understanding the Russian military’s cruel tactics can also save lives, Saleh said. For example, the Russian air force is notorious for what are called “double tap” strikes. Russian planes attack civilians, wait for first responders to arrive and then attack the first responders.

“One thing that we learned is, after the initial attack, you’ve got about seven to nine minutes, tops, to be able to do anything in that area, before they can hit it again,” Saleh said. “So, those seven to nine minutes are really important.”

The Ukrainians should establish small medical outposts around the city that can handle minor injuries and take the pressure off larger hospitals, Saleh said. But keep those secret and move them often, he warned, or they will be targeted by the Russian military as well.

and

There are some things the Syrians have learned not to do. Do not give GPS locations of medical facilities to the United Nations, which may claim it needs the information to keep them safe. The Russians will use that information to target them. Never let Moscow have any say or control over how humanitarian aid is distributed, even when it’s a U.N. program. The Kremlin will use that power to starve out civilian populations, as it is doing in Syria now.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 21:58

Anne Barnard @ABarnardNYT
Unfortunately, I concur w/warning. Years of our Syria reporting, capped w/@malachybrowne & VI team’s definitive documentation, show Russian/Syrian govs purposely target medical sites, including on UN no-hit lists. No smoking gun that UN handed over GPS data, but NGOs are v wary.

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 21:58

If I was a mad dictator I wouldn't want this stuff coming out

Probably also better not to invade another country when things are looking tricky for your economy post pandemic ? Unless you are looking at ways of increasing your pension, has Putin got any nickel interests ?

Saku · 08/03/2022 22:02

@GallopingHighRoad then you suggesting that there are people suffering there ....(very very inhumane and heart wrenching)... in cold, getting their houses bombed, children dying by dehydration on road..... is not enough...
Do this needs to happen in west too ....People in Ukraine have been unfortunate that they have to suffer .. But is it good to make people in west also suffer .. even if US is also there to bear the bite ... where US made clear that it is not going to ban Russian oil already.
We should help Ukrain people they need refuge... but to make own people lives a survival quest , is no brain. Most of the people who are sitting at home having time to argue on it can say yes its ok 'we can manage the budget by managing car pooling or turning radiator one degree low'. But what about those who are at brink of hand to mouth...... As they dont have luxury to tick or tweak here or there to manage their budget.

Dovesofpeace · 08/03/2022 22:03

7 to 9 minuets .

The white helmets

What will come out about what he has done to his own people after all this.

Apparently bush 2008 was a key moment.
Bush was gazing into Putin's eye's whilst Cheyna (sp) was going on.

PestorPeston · 08/03/2022 22:04

I'm not sure if this has been previously linked to, it has been out there since 4th Feb
consortiumnews.com/2022/02/04/what-a-us-trap-for-russia-in-ukraine-might-look-like
How much are we using Ukraine for or own ends?

workisnotawolf · 08/03/2022 22:06

Somebody asked about dropping the NATO point. The EU has a mutual defence clause too (article 42). Now that EU countries are rearming should be enough potentially.

RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 22:07

Deborah Haynes @haynesdeborah
This is important: Poland's PM suggests a decision to give Ukraine fighter planes (to man its own no-fly zone against Russia) should be a NATO one. He says it's why Poland is ready to move its MiG-29 jets to a US base in Germany "but we're not ready to make any moves on our own"

Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10
Jisforjelly · 08/03/2022 22:07

This explains the Polish jet planes thing a bit more clearly:

Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10
RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 22:08

sorry ignore the picture.its not relevant.

Dovesofpeace · 08/03/2022 22:08

" contain Russia's development"??

Development??

I'm going too break into next door tonight and kick them out, it's fine for me to" develope" my home and make it bigger.

Why do we give this Man air time.
I bet he' is loving all this attention.

I saw a Great giff (?) On twitter.

Al Pacino as Micheal Cornelone ..." Offer the senator this : nothing.".

MagicFox · 08/03/2022 22:08

@PestorPeston

I'm not sure if this has been previously linked to, it has been out there since 4th Feb consortiumnews.com/2022/02/04/what-a-us-trap-for-russia-in-ukraine-might-look-like How much are we using Ukraine for or own ends?
It's so scary how we are all just pawns in a game, the ones that get knocked over while the players play on
EsmaCannonball · 08/03/2022 22:08

I'm a bit suspicious that a lot of posters critical of Ukraine's resistance and western actions do not seem to have English as a first language. Bot farms are real.

changeyourname11111 · 08/03/2022 22:09

@EsmaCannonball

I'm a bit suspicious that a lot of posters critical of Ukraine's resistance and western actions do not seem to have English as a first language. Bot farms are real.
I noticed that too.
PestorPeston · 08/03/2022 22:17

@EsmaCannonball

I'm a bit suspicious that a lot of posters critical of Ukraine's resistance and western actions do not seem to have English as a first language. Bot farms are real.
Foreigners are also real and valid. Having English as a first language is not essential.
BreadInCaptivity · 08/03/2022 22:20

[quote Saku]@GallopingHighRoad then you suggesting that there are people suffering there ....(very very inhumane and heart wrenching)... in cold, getting their houses bombed, children dying by dehydration on road..... is not enough...
Do this needs to happen in west too ....People in Ukraine have been unfortunate that they have to suffer .. But is it good to make people in west also suffer .. even if US is also there to bear the bite ... where US made clear that it is not going to ban Russian oil already.
We should help Ukrain people they need refuge... but to make own people lives a survival quest , is no brain. Most of the people who are sitting at home having time to argue on it can say yes its ok 'we can manage the budget by managing car pooling or turning radiator one degree low'. But what about those who are at brink of hand to mouth...... As they dont have luxury to tick or tweak here or there to manage their budget.[/quote]

Honestly here is a 🎻 you....

Seriously spare me the quite frankly galling, insensitive and utterly inappropriate contrast between people fleeing Ukraine right now, leaving all they possess and loved ones behind them and the fact that in the West we are going to have to watch what we spend.

In fact that it's a separate issue entirely what the U.K. govt needs to do to alivite poverty in this country and the answer to that question isn't to pull up our skirts and bend over for Putin not ask the Ukrainians to do so either.

The fact you think this is acceptable is utterly abhorrent.

You're the person in the joke that says to his mate when confronted by a Grizzly "I don't need to outrun the bear - I just need to outrun you".

Thing is when the bear has eaten your mate he'll still want another meal and they'll be nobody to outrun but your own selfishness because you didn't stand together to fight.

SeedsSeedsSeeds · 08/03/2022 22:23

Well I have emailed my MP for the first time ever today, it's an absolute outrage that we aren't giving out visas. I wish I had heard that we weren't helping the consulate employees before I emailed as I would have added that as well. My one person boycott of McDonald's, fizzy drinks and luxury brands is going swimmingly. As I never consumed those things before, they probably haven't noticed my principled stand though. I guess it's the thought that counts!

Wrongkindofovercoat · 08/03/2022 22:27

@PestorPeston I think Ukraine were noticing an increase in shelling/bombing of the border between Ukraine and the disputed/claiming independence regions in the run up to the invasion ?

So has someone rattled someone elses cage ? The NATO thing is a red herring, was never going to happen whilst you had the whole disputed territory thing going on, so what else prompted it ?

Who ultimately benefits from this war ?

Shuuu · 08/03/2022 22:28

@Jisforjelly

This explains the Polish jet planes thing a bit more clearly:
I’m confused by this. Putin will be suspicious it’s NATO that has done this to benefit Ukraine. Or am I missing something. Can he only complain in a formal way such as it was directly given to Ukraine? War is not formal ‘ the war Putin is carrying out is not following the rules set in stone. Can anybody clarify? Am I missing something
Dovesofpeace · 08/03/2022 22:29

Omg I'm sure russian bots would have an excellent standard of English.

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 08/03/2022 22:32

@EsmaCannonball

I'm a bit suspicious that a lot of posters critical of Ukraine's resistance and western actions do not seem to have English as a first language. Bot farms are real.
Oh look! Your xenophobia is showing.
RedToothBrush · 08/03/2022 22:33

apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kyiv-europe-united-nations-evacuations-62fa232dcb9d6260fef0e9c7f5386f9a
Suffering goes on in encircled Mariupol as evacuation fails

Corpses lie in the streets of Mariupol. Hungry people break into stores in search of food and melt snow for water. Thousands huddle in basements, trembling at the sound of Russian shells pounding this strategic port city.

In Mariupol, authorities planned to start digging mass graves for all the dead, though the number is unclear. The shelling has shattered buildings, and the city has no water, heat, working sewage systems or phone service.

Theft has become widespread for food, clothes, even furniture, with locals referring to the practice as “getting a discount.” Some residents are reduced to scooping water from streams.

With the electricity out, many people are relying on their car radios for information, picking up news from stations broadcast from areas controlled by Russian forces or Russian-backed separatists.

Ludmila Amelkina, who was walking along an alley strewn with rubble and walls pocked by gunfire, said the destruction had been devastating.

“We don’t have electricity, we don’t have anything to eat, we don’t have medicine. We’ve got nothing,” she said, looking skyward.

Liam Stack @liamstack
Since Feb. 24, 2 million people have fled Ukraine, 1 million of them children, according to the UN.

“We have not seen a refugee crisis of this speed and scale since World War II,” said a UNICEF spokesman. “And this is a children crisis.”

But as long as we are warm and we don't have those pesky Russian Toddler Hitmen running about...

Booklover3 · 08/03/2022 22:34

It doesn’t look like anyone benefits from the war? I don’t get Putins rational. Hes invaded but he can’t hold or sustain it. His troops are mostly boys who have absolutely no idea what they are doing or why they are even there (if the tictok videos are real)… there is no benefit for him. Unless his ego really was that inflated and he really did think it would be a walk in the park.

Perhaps he has started to believe his own lies.

I can’t get my head around it.

SwimmingOnEggshells · 08/03/2022 22:37

@Booklover3 he has no grasp on reality. He's fed what he wants to hear by his close knit group of advisers.

BreadInCaptivity · 08/03/2022 22:37

@Shuuu

Putin is going to be pissed of however it's done, but this way he can't complain the planes have been directly provided by NATO - rather they are the unwanted assets of a country that's upgrading its military jets.

Yes it's a technically.....

But frankly, given how many munitions the EU/US has already supplied its not a massive upping of the ante and furthermore its not as if he's not getting assistance in staging his invasion from his mate in Belarus.