Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 10

[cakeorwine]

That filled up quick

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4497950-Ukraine-invasion-discussion-thread-part-9

I can't speak to the majority but we have quite a lot of Russian friends (multi national company with big Russian business)
They are definitely impacted as the value of their currency has plummeted, they are saying their salaries are worth 40% less.
They are very scared and sad about their future.

Just watched the standing ovation in the house of commons for President Zelensky. The sceptic in me remembers the clapping the NHS had over the last 2 years and how much that was reflected in the government's behaviour and appreciation. Can't believe the reluctance to allow the refugees into the UK. Imagine trudging in freezing temperatures with your elderly parents and/or toddler children with whatever remnants of your life being dragged behind you to be met by someone asking 'did you bring your visa, passport, birth certificate'...unbelievable. Just give them shelter. Every time I see Priti Patel I want to shake her.

Stolen from Twitter, this is going to be my standard response to people saying that Ukraine should give up for “the greater good”:

I see your “Ukraine should simply surrender because war is bad” and I raise you “Russia should simply stop invading because war is bad”.

As a lighthearted side note, whenever I read the phrase “for the greater good” my mind goes straight to Hot Fuzz and I hear the phrase repeated in a monotonous tone. It makes it difficult to take people seriously.

Does anyone have any reliable information on if/how far the sanctions are biting and how the majority of the Russian people are reacting to the situation at this moment?

I'm only seeing social media posts from russians / friends of russians on tiktok and reddit but at this stage that might be more reliable than MSM...

Please can somebody explain about Poland and the jets? Why are the giving them to the US to give to Ukraine?

Any other significance, other than this hopefully being really helpful to Ukraine?

What kind of victory does Putin actually want? If Russian forces eventually take Ukraine all that’ll be left is a country full of rubble, a broken economy, and an exodus of skilled peoples. Is he just going to leave this wasteland as his expanded Russia? If so, what will have been the point of this all?

@Saku

News UK punishes Russia by oil ban

or punishes their own people by high rise on oil prices.
Again with just high talks but no talking about people who are struggling to survive winter or
the people on the brink to become homeless and can not afford to travel to go to work to earn because it will not be feasible to them anymore.
More homeless, more job less people = children without food or shelter
UK get his oil from US result who get benefit out of it -- is US.
who suffer ----- UK people

Putin and his Oligarch bully boys

Or punishes their own people by high rise on oil prices.
Putin has pillaged Russia's natural resources. The profits are now sitting in offshore bank accounts, property in London and in yachts moored to quays in Cannes.

Again with just high talks but no talking about people who are struggling to survive winter
In Ukraine it is colder and people are already dead because of Putin's policy of genocide.

The people on the brink to become homeless
In Ukraine homes have been turned to ash and dust by Russian soldiers with no moral compass.

And can not afford to travel to go to work to earn because it will not be feasible to them anymore.
In Ukraine nurses and doctors are shot in their cars by Russian tank crew on the way to work.

More homeless, more job less people = children without food or shelter
In Mariupol a six year old girl died from dehydration having been trapped in her home after a Russian shelling.

Meanwhile Russian soldiers are killing children, raping women and executing genocide.

You talk a load of bollocks @Saku

@Windypants21

Just watched the standing ovation in the house of commons for President Zelensky. The sceptic in me remembers the clapping the NHS had over the last 2 years and how much that was reflected in the government's behaviour and appreciation. Can't believe the reluctance to allow the refugees into the UK. Imagine trudging in freezing temperatures with your elderly parents and/or toddler children with whatever remnants of your life being dragged behind you to be met by someone asking 'did you bring your visa, passport, birth certificate'...unbelievable. Just give them shelter. Every time I see Priti Patel I want to shake her.

Yes. Absolutely. I appreciate we can't just sort a 'no fly zone' / put boots on the ground easily / quickly or possibly responsibly, but we could sort our refugee entry system relatively quickly for Ukrainians IF there was the will to do so. I don't like picking on individual politicians / how people look but Priti Patel had the most odd expression when the camera panned in towards her near the end I thought. I'm trying to think what it reminds me of but the nearest I can think is performatively leading a public 'charidee" drive whilst one works out how little one can actually donate? I hope I'm wrong about that & it was just an unfortunate moment. The Govt refugee response is shameful so far.

"I have cooled down regarding this question a long time ago after we understood that… NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine," Zelensky said in an interview on ABC News.”

Interesting…

I'm fucking scared, tonight has been the first night that I've been like this.

All these leaders playing games when it's only us mere mortals that get hurt.

Why is everything so public - why announce you're sending planes when you know that leads us into the heart of war

Didn't putin specifically say if Anyone provided planes it would be considered an act of war

Well, he might consider it to be, but it’s probably not.
Russia is not a signatory to the Arms Trade Treaty, I found today. And neither has the US ratified it.

@TokyoSushi

Please can somebody explain about Poland and the jets? Why are the giving them to the US to give to Ukraine?

Any other significance, other than this hopefully being really helpful to Ukraine?

Mark Stone @Stone_SkyNews NEW: Poland is sending “immediately & free of charge – all their MIG-29 jets to Ramstein (US base in Germany) at the disposal of the USA”

Not clear what happens next - do Ukrainian pilots go to Ramstein and pick them up? How will Putin interpret that?

My question - for @MClarkeRUSI and others - is why hand them to the Americans? Why not just get Ukrainian pilots to take them from Poland? Does handing them to America first not exacerbate tensions?

It sounds like the Polish are trading in their MiGs to the Americans (and getting new planes in return).

This means the Poles aren't supplying the Ukrainians with planes. Might be a technicality but I think must be being done for a reason.

What happens to them next we don't know. They will probably be need to be completely rebadged and all polish markings removed and then the challenge is to get them into Ukraine.

My thought is its the Americans taking the heat off the Poles.

Its harder for the Russians to get upset - the point is explicit here - the US are involved in this, if you want to pick a fight, then you've got one with us. They may have a way they think they can smuggle them over the border unnoticed.

Remember the Russians are shipping weapons through Belarus already though, so if they say anything, I'm sure they will be reminded of this.

@elephantmarchingin

I'm fucking scared, tonight has been the first night that I've been like this.

All these leaders playing games when it's only us mere mortals that get hurt.

Why is everything so public - why announce you're sending planes when you know that leads us into the heart of war

I feel the same, I have been off work today and had more time than usual to check news updates and this thread and I am terrified at this latest development, it has been in talks for days but now it’s happening I am scared how Russia will respond

@elephantmarchingin I believe they actually said that any country allowing the Ukrainians to fly missions from their territory - assuming that many Ukrainian airstrips have been destroyed and are no longer useable - would be considered to have entered the conflict. That's a very different kettle of fish to if the planes are being flown on missions from Ukrainian territory by Ukrainian pilots. I assume it might be why the planes are being given to the US first. Once they're in Ukraine it's not much different to the massive amounts of other lethal aid we have given them, it's flying missions from other territories that seemed to be specifically highlighted as the point where the Russians would consider them to have entered the war. Who knows, though, it's not like we can believe a word that Putin or Lavrov say.

There’s so much lethal aid going in the plane provision is more of that I hope

@toastfiend this is what DM said

• Russia's Defense Ministry has warned neighbouring countries against hosting Ukraine with warplanes
• Ministry spokesman said it 'could be considered as those countries' engagement in the military conflict'

Didn't putin specifically say if Anyone provided planes it would be considered an act of war

He also said sanctions were an act of war Putin says a lot of things

Any country choosing to provide 2nd hand planes to Ukraine is not an act of war. Arms dealing is big business not an act of war, whatever you might think of it ethically

Russia invading Ukraine unprovoked is an act of war.

Happy to help

@TheSillyMastiff
Great news. Hopefully this will have some impact.

@Jisforjelly

"I have cooled down regarding this question a long time ago after we understood that… NATO is not prepared to accept Ukraine," Zelensky said in an interview on ABC News.”

Interesting…

Interesting but sad. George W Bush promised them entry to NATO in 2008. Causing the CIA and Clinton years of issues as there was no way they could meet the entry requirements.

@elephantmarchingin the key word there is hosting. If the planes are brought into the country and fly from Ukraine then no one is hosting anything.

If you read beyond the clickbait DM headline then this is what the Russian minister actually said:

He warned that if those warplanes attacked the Russian forces from the territory of those nations, it 'could be considered as those countries' engagement in the military conflict'.

Giving Ukraine the planes isn't the same thing as attacking Russian forces from a separate territory. If you're feeling really anxious then steer clear of the DM, they hint at the worst to get clicks in their headlines and bury the nuances way down in the article.

Remember the Russians are shipping weapons through Belarus already though, so if they say anything, I'm sure they will be reminded of this

I wonder if Belarus is also 'hosting' any Russian aircraft ?

Apparently 1million of those who have left Ukraine are children. Thats about half of these refugees.

These are the Russian Kill Squad Members that the Home Office is warning us about.

I saw a comment on a YouTube suggesting we tell Putin the sanctions are special financial operations.

I agree with pp, I think Putin is paving the way for a chemical/biological weapons attack. I wish there was more we could do to stop him.

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Remember the Russians are shipping weapons through Belarus already though, so if they say anything, I'm sure they will be reminded of this

I wonder if Belarus is also 'hosting' any Russian aircraft ?

Evidence seems to be yes.

There was twitter noises about satelite images showing more of one type of plane than Belarus owned.

Americans will know this, if its true.