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Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

999 replies

cakeorwine · 06/03/2022 10:45

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

OP posts:
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19
RedToothBrush · 07/03/2022 12:46

Solutions to these things are not unsolvable. They are a problem, but they are not unsolvable.

The point of the sponsorship scheme is it supposedly is to prove a lot of that support in settlement - eg with jobs and housing. Like was the case with Bosnian refugees.

21 September 2004
The latest UNHCR statistics from Bosnia and Herzegovina show that 1 million former refugees and displaced persons have now returned home. This is a significant and long-awaited milestone in the lengthy process of rebuilding a nation shattered by the 1992-95 war.

In all, 1,000,473 people out of a total of more than 2 million people forcibly displaced during the war had returned to their home areas by the end of July, according to the latest monthly figures released today by UNHCR in Sarajevo. Of these, around 440,000 were refugees who had fled Bosnia and Herzegovina, and 560,000 were forcibly displaced inside the country.

We are falling into something of a trap and making the rather arrogant assumption that refugees will all want to stay in the UK indefinitely. Many will, but certainly the hope is that won't be the case too. Obviously it depends on what happens with Ukraine and how long things last. But Ukrainians have a real sense of national pride thats being fuelled by the war too.

Indeed, even if they qualify for refugee status now, at the end of that then what? If you want to stay indefinitely, you are going to have to start thinking about what steps you'd need to complete to get permenant residency almost immediately after arrival given what our Home Office is like.

I think that, in itself, makes it perhaps a different prospect to refugees from many other parts of the world where its a clear its a permanent arrangement.

RedToothBrush · 07/03/2022 12:49

[quote dreamingbohemian]Ok an interesting update:

The Kremlin has announced its demands for ending the war in Ukraine:
-Ukraine must change its constitution to guarantee it won't join any "blocs", i.e. NATO + EU.
-Must recognise Crimea as part of Russia.
-Must recognise the eastern separatist regions as independent.

twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1500810351192985600[/quote]
And what about the parts its currently occupying?

That however is a major significant shift on the face of it. Whats the catch? Not convinced on this yet. Its a odds with what Putins been saying all weekend.

dreamingbohemian · 07/03/2022 12:54

I think the main shift in the demands is dropping 'demilitarisation'

Apparently Ukraine has already said it won't be giving into these demands.

On the face of it, it might sound okay to leave Ukraine 'neutral' but by removing the possibility of EU/NATO membership, you are essentially keeping Ukraine in Russia's orbit.

Ukraine cannot accept the loss of Crimea, it is so important strategically.

And there is no way you can trust Russia. It might withdraw now (especially as it's doing so poorly) but it could always use those territories in Crimea/Donbas to launch another invasion, and it will definitely keep trying for regime change by non-military means.

dreamingbohemian · 07/03/2022 12:55

There is also this from Christo Grozev:

Two persons close to the Russia-Ukraine negotiations (including back channel talks) tell me Russia proposed (1) Zelensky remains pro forma president but Russia appoints Boiko as PM, (2) Ukraine recognizes L/DNR and Crimea, (3) No NATO. Ze told them emphatically no.

So regime change is not off the table.

TokyoSushi · 07/03/2022 13:04

[quote dreamingbohemian]Ok an interesting update:

The Kremlin has announced its demands for ending the war in Ukraine:
-Ukraine must change its constitution to guarantee it won't join any "blocs", i.e. NATO + EU.
-Must recognise Crimea as part of Russia.
-Must recognise the eastern separatist regions as independent.

twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1500810351192985600[/quote]
Would Ukraine ever agree to this?

We can't join the EU/NATO etc because Russia says we're not allowed to...?

FurbleSocks · 07/03/2022 13:05

Unfortunately whilst in theory the housing solutions would be temporary, let's not forget the war prefabs which people are still living in in this century.

bluewanda · 07/03/2022 13:08

Well this is very hopeful - praying that it’s true:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10585145/Ukraine-war-Zelensky-declares-god-not-forgive-Russians-target-civilians.html

RedToothBrush · 07/03/2022 13:11

What we are saying v What we are actually doing.

Feel free to put all over social media.

Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9
Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9
Booklover3 · 07/03/2022 13:13

I honestly believe Ukraine could win this so I hope it’s true

WeChallengeEverything · 07/03/2022 13:16

I think the main shift in the demands is dropping 'demilitarisation'

No deal. Not until Russia accepts its own demilitarisation now which can only happen with sanctions in place for the long term. Otherwise we have a new and more fervent arms' race on our hands after this.

vera99 · 07/03/2022 13:21

Go to be 50:50 chances surely over the next 6 months ?

www.spectator.co.uk/article/could-a-kremlin-assassin-get-to-putin-

ould an assassin kill Putin? Just as the Second World War would not have happened without the demonic will and agency of Adolf Hitler, so the invasion of Ukraine – and its horrific bloodshed and unspeakable human misery – is Putin’s war. Can he be stopped? The bad news is that the chances do not look good at the moment.

Putin is protected 24/7 by one of the world’s strongest security details, who have sealed him in a closed bubble. All access to him is strictly – almost manically – controlled, in much the same way as it was for Stalin and Hitler. The chances of a lone outside assassin like Fanny Kaplin – a Jewish Ukrainian woman, who, in 1918, fired three bullets into the Bolshevik leader Lenin, touching off a series of strokes that crippled and eventually killed the Soviet dictator – getting to the dictator are zero. If Putin is to be stopped, ousted, and arrested or assassinated, the authors of such an attempt will have to come from within the clique who surround him. Desperate times spawn desperate remedies, and only when the clique think that their own futures are directly imperilled by Putin’s increasingly dangerous actions are they likely to act.

Putin has already publicly humiliated members of his inner circle by berating them when they have raised the mildest of questions about his actions. They cannot have much affection for this supremely unlovable man. But will their growing doubts about him overcome their fears for their own futures?

History is replete with examples of successful assassinations carried out by the intimates of dictatorial rulers. Julius Caesar was, of course, killed by members of the Roman Senate; numerous Roman emperors like Caligula were murdered by their Praetorian guards, and at least one – Claudius – was probably poisoned by his own wife Agrippina. In modern times, King Faisal of Saudi Arabia was killed in 1975 by his own nephew, while India’s prime minister Mrs Indira Gandhi was gunned down in 1984 by her Sikh bodyguards, outraged by her attack on their holy Golden Temple in Amritsar.

Nearing the end of his thirty-year rule, a sick and ageing Stalin had become so psychotic that he had arrested and was torturing his own doctors on suspicion of poisoning him, and was threatening the lives of his cronies and colleagues in the Soviet Politburo. There is considerable evidence that one of them, the Chief of the Soviet secret police and security services, Lavrenti Beria, acted ruthlessly to save his own skin by actually poisoning his boss – appropriately enough with the rat poison warfarin – triggering the stroke that ended Stalin’s dreadful life on 5 March 1953. Beria himself proudly boasted of the deed, telling his comrades: ‘I did him in! I saved all your lives!’

Speculation about Putin’s assassination might seem presumptive, but, as the distinguished historian Professor Michael Burleigh demonstrated in his 2021 study of assassination through the ages ‘Day Of The Assassins’, the killing of political leaders from Julius Caesar to the present day has been a far more common way of giving history a helpful nudge than elections or abstract social and economic developments.

When all decision making has been concentrated in the hands of a single all powerful ruler, as with Putin, only the physical removal of the tyrant can end the tyranny and lift the danger that he is posing. But perhaps we should be careful what we wish for. Lenin’s untimely death paved the way for the rise to supreme power of Putin’s role model, Joseph Stalin.

Assassinations can also start wars – most famously with the killing of Austria’s Archduke Franz-Ferdinand by Gavrilo Princip in 1914 that precipitated World War One – but they can also end them. Had either of the two bombs that came close to killing Hitler in November 1939 and July 1944 succeeded in their aim, there is little doubt that the Second World War would have finished earlier and millions of lives would have been saved.

Less well known, but possibly more pertinent to president Putin in his current circumstances, with his close knowledge of Russia’s history, is the successful killing of Tsar Paul I at St Michael’s Castle in St Petersburg in March 1801. Like Putin, the increasingly eccentric and isolated Tsar had alienated the circle of military and civil officials surrounding him by his erratic foreign policy decisions. Their discontent culminated in a conspiracy which ended with them entering Paul’s apartment and strangling him. He was succeeded by his son Alexander I who eventually ended Paul’s alliance with Napoleon and brought the rampaging French emperor down.

So if the close circle of Generals and corrupt yes men on whom Putin’s power rests are sufficiently alarmed by the increasingly chaotic course of the Ukraine war and the world’s horrified reaction to it, is there the faintest chance that they will take a leaf from the playbook of Beria and Tsar Paul’s officials and end the crisis by bumping off their boss?

As the options open to the kleptocrats and and former secret policemen who Putin has protected and promoted close down, and the rage of the Russian people themselves rise, the best hope for ending this crisis may well rest with bad men acting to bring down the still worse and possibly deranged dictator who is leading them and Russia into the abyss.

Putin once told a journalist in a filmed interview that he had learned a valuable lesson about power in his youth when he cornered a rat in the apartment block where he grew up. Instead of submitting, the rat leapt at his face and attacked him. It is time for the rats in the Kremlin to learn the same lesson.

WRITTEN BY
Nigel Jones is a historian and journalist. His next book ‘Kitty’s Salon: Sex, Spying & Surveillance in the Third Reich’ will be published by Bonnier next year.

Autumnwater · 07/03/2022 13:22

Very interesting with Russian demands again, really hope something positive comes from it. I wonder if there can be some compromise with it (not that I think anything should be settled by war, he stamps his feet and gets what he wants) I just find it so hard to see How it will end without a compromise from either side. Maybe a drop of NATO/EU from Ukraine for the time being. ( I assume the country needs to be economically stable etc to join both EU/NATO which they won’t be for some time) I find it so hard to see how a bit of land can be so important to waste so much life on both sides.

Ijsbear · 07/03/2022 13:23

Given that Brexit seems to have been funded a great deal by Russian money, Carrie's Russian - money links, the level of 'truthfulness' of Johnson and the refusal to allow any refugees in at the moment - I hate to say this but I have reached the appalling conclusion that Putin owns Johnson, the leader of our country.

I don't think we can expect any leadership or genuine efforts to help from the leadership of the UK govt.

BirdOnTheWire · 07/03/2022 13:24

I do think when we take more people from Ukraine there need to be awareness that they need jobs and places to live, so support in every day people’s lives.
They are almost all women with children so unless there is childcare as well they won't be able to work.
I'm not sure how this works now but when I used to work in a related field (asylum seekers) they were not permitted to work? It always seemed pointless to meif they were able to work.

GallopingHighRoad · 07/03/2022 13:31

@bluewanda
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10585145/Ukraine-war-Zelensky-declares-god-not-forgive-Russians-target-civilians.html

What I find interesting in these pictures and others recently published, is how much of this equipment is in good working order. The more recent pictures especially seem to show this. That suggests some equipment is now being abandoned. There are vast reserves of Russian equipment, but it is that which has been brought up to the borders and the theatre that is relevant. I increasingly feel that the real failure of the Russian military has been to establish a mandate for war with its soldiers.

RedToothBrush · 07/03/2022 13:32

Re: The Mail's article.

Possible reality check in the process here:
The Kremlin can keep telling the army to do whatever it likes. However if they have run out of munitions and equipment on the ground, its a bit useless.

-------------

Is this happening?

Certainly in the North and around Kharkiv / Sumy I think this isn't an out there suggestion. All reports seem to support this.

In the South its a bit more complex, but I'd be guessing their logistics are probably stretched to the max now with how much ground they can take. Especially if they are using up lots of manpower trying to occupy cities which have mass protests in. The worry for me would be that in these cities the Russian might withdraw simply so they can then reduce them to rubble. Theres been suggestion this has been where they have focused efforts and perhaps had better leadership.

But again this depends on how much they have left in the way of munitions. Which has been suggested, they haven't got.

There definitely HAS been a loss of momentum on the Russia side over the last 48 hours (hence the calls for humanitarian corridors in the first place whilst they regrouped). This is real. Its been confirmed by British and US sources.

The stuff I've seen today suggests that the Russian really are only occupying roads, not areas too. If their logistics are gradually fucked as they are in the north elsewhere, you'd expect things to grind to a halt. Arguably thats what we might be seeing. And the Ukrainians would then start to repeat what they are doing in the North elsewhere, with lots of Russians effectively stranded.

There's been reports overnight which seem to be verified, that the Ukranians sunk a BIG warship near Odessa, which would be significant. Lots of evidence that the airforce is getting toasted.

Tentatively, if this is indeed real (which looks and sounds possible), then yes I'd expect to see a change in the Russian diplomatic position and I'd also expect to see at least some real push back from the Ukranians start to happen in a few days in at least some places.

Its what you'd expect if you were switching into a war of attrition which perhaps is the most likely scenario. The Russians need the momentum and once they lose that, they are going to run into even more problems.

GallopingHighRoad · 07/03/2022 13:33

Has been NOT to establish a mandate for war, might read better.

DGRossetti · 07/03/2022 13:36

Given that Brexit seems to have been funded a great deal by Russian money, Carrie's Russian - money links, the level of 'truthfulness' of Johnson and the refusal to allow any refugees in at the moment - I hate to say this but I have reached the appalling conclusion that Putin owns Johnson, the leader of our country.

I reached that 3 years ago. When some were wailing "but Corbyn" ...

But it's so much worse than that. Not only is the leader of the UK compromised - anyone who supports him must similarly be considered tainted.

GallopingHighRoad · 07/03/2022 13:40

There's been reports overnight which seem to be verified, that the Ukranians sunk a BIG warship near Odessa, which would be significant.

I read a patrol boat. That is not a big ship.

Lots of evidence that the airforce is getting toasted.

I would not describe it that way. There have been some videos of some aircraft getting downed. The helicopter being taken out by ground to air was real. While we know the air force has a material amount of equipment that is in poor repair, I would not say the 'air force is getting toasted' because we do not have that evidence.

Iknowitisheresomewhere · 07/03/2022 13:41

I have been thinking a lot about the refugee issue - just some musings here:

Many many people would be happy to open their homes. That works for days/weeks, maybe months. It does not work for years. And therefore anyone thinking seriously about doing has to trust the government that they will provide the infrastructure that is needed - school places, doctors etc. What would happen if the arrangement 'broke down' (death or serious illness of the UK host or their family, violence from one party to another, redundancy meaning the host had to move house) etc etc etc

Some people will use this to exploit people. Think modern slavery/child abuse etc. There has to be something to deter this because it is no use saying 'it won't happen in the majority of cases'. It will happen to some people so we need a system to document everyone and where they are.

Second homes - empty houses etc - there is currently an empty house in my sisters wider family due to a recent death. I am nearly certain it would not meet current requirements for letting out (electricity checks etc). Should she be able to offer it? For how long would she be exempt from such checks? Sadly for every 'this is how we do it' I can come across a 'and this would be exploited in such and such a way'.
When you are talking millions of people I am confident that the overall good outweighs the risks of significant exploitation in the short term. But the smaller the number (as will be the case in the UK) and the longer the time required, the more regulation is needed to protect the people you are trying to help.

I have come to the conclusion that for me personally, I would gladly house someone/a family for up to 3 months. But longer than that I would have major concerns for a variety of reasons. And I don't (yet) trust our government that anything would be sorted quickly. So at the moment I am just giving money. And writing to my MP. And feeling helpless/guilty.

RedToothBrush · 07/03/2022 13:42

[quote GallopingHighRoad]@bluewanda
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10585145/Ukraine-war-Zelensky-declares-god-not-forgive-Russians-target-civilians.html

What I find interesting in these pictures and others recently published, is how much of this equipment is in good working order. The more recent pictures especially seem to show this. That suggests some equipment is now being abandoned. There are vast reserves of Russian equipment, but it is that which has been brought up to the borders and the theatre that is relevant. I increasingly feel that the real failure of the Russian military has been to establish a mandate for war with its soldiers.[/quote]
Whats the use in a tank if you have no munitions for it?

You are just a big target. Of course you would abandon it.

DGRossetti · 07/03/2022 13:45

Many many people would be happy to open their homes

You need support you can trust from the state. So the UK isn't in the running there.

Also wait until the people offering and volunteering have DWP sanctioning them.

GallopingHighRoad · 07/03/2022 13:56

@RedToothBrush

There is no evidence they have used up all their ammunition. The light artillery pieces, had they ran out of ammunition, would not have been abandoned for that reason. At the very least we would see piles of empty shell cases. You don't leave guns - google "Saving The Guns". This equipment has been abandoned not destroyed.

UltimateFoole · 07/03/2022 13:58

Quick point on the Lebedevs / ex-KGB thing.

You are ex-KGB in the same sense that you are ex-Eton, ex-public school. The officer class of the KGB was an elite.

The lives of senior KGB officers were often intertwined - so they could all keep an eye on each other. Putin's rise to power was essentially the triumph of the former-KGB over post-Soviet Russia.

So yeah - James Cleverley's remarks on his father being a chartered surveyor are obtuse in this context.

It's less about a job and more about being part of an elite network.

Evgeney Lebedev's father is a former senior KGB officer and living in Russia - not jailed - once again on fair terms with the Russian government (aka Putin). There was a bump in the road in 2012 when some of his money was taken away following intimidation by Russian secret services. But it's all blown over now.

You do the math.

ILoveAllRainbowsx · 07/03/2022 14:00

@dreamingbohemian

I am not German and I'm not talking about Nordstream. I'm talking about refugees.

But good to know there is more room in one city (Berlin) than in a whole country (the UK).

Not to mention the small countries like Denmark, Cyprus and Austria that took in more refugees than the UK.

It is not about 'space' or logistics, it's about politics and anti-refugee attitudes.

Do you have any idea how many children are in hostels in the UK because we do not have any houses?

These children should not be in hostels.

How many children live in hostels in Germany?

No, I am sure you don't want to talk about Nordstream because Germany well and truly shafted Ukraine.