Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

It is true that lots of foreign nationals own UK property, directly or indirectly, because it is seen as a safe asset against economic shocks. We do not have laws forbidding any class of people to own property as a general rule, the laws affect the checks that need to be done to check the money to buy the property was acquired legally. The register will make it much more transparent about who owns what, and possibly affect how easy it is for firms to do their money laundering checks, but all the checks should be done now anyway, the register just means more knowledge is brought into the open.

I am not sure it will be transparent. It can only be transparent if the £25m put down to buy a property in Mayfair is traced back to the source of the money. If money is corruptly appropriated how are you going to get a valid receipt for it? What happens now is that a company called something like Moonbeam LLC registered in Cayman transfers money from a Dubai account to a London law firm to buy the property. Meanwhile Moonbeam is controlled by Starlight Inc a Panamanian company and because it is on the Panamanian register that is all it needs to do. Starlight is owned by a chap called Jorge Mendez and he 'just go lucky on property'. Transparency would arise if all personal bank accounts and business records were available online. Of course that cannot ever happen.

To break the link, London conveyancers would have to audit the source of the money to ensure it is genuine. That is virtually impossible. This is leaving aside the fact that oligarchs can trade in companies and have no need even to wire money. Sergei transfers his shares in Moonbeam to Carlos in Sao Paulo in return for shares in Sapphire a Geneva company that holds valuable artwork that nobody in Geneva has ever seen. The register is doomed to fail and failing that the fear that the UK property market will.

Now you know the real reason for the push for a Singapore style economy. That was always about disaster capitalism and not entrepreneurial optimism.

We have probably half a million people of our own needing housing in England and probably a lot more than that

All the people with second homes can house a refugee family for a bit. I was shocked when I read how many people in the UK have a second/holiday home (ie not a home that is let as a residence). Given the so-called housing crisis, it's appalling.

There are also a lot of flats being built in London which only Russian (and Chinese) oligarchs can afford to buy. Maybe in an ironic twist we could use those for refugees too.

@UKRAINEwearewithyou pretty much they are on their own sides feathering their own nests whilst wrapping themselves in as many union jacks as they can get their hands on. When they ditched Theresa May and countless other highly competent tories for BJ we left planet normal way behind sadly.

We have probably half a million people of our own needing housing in England and probably a lot more than that. We also have hundreds of people crossing the channel each week who need housing.

At the risk of derailing the thread - while this is true, it has been a political choice not to sort out the housing market. We have seen with this Government that enriching their mates is all that matters. Think of that next time you vote.

@FacebookPhotos

ILoveAllRainbowsx I'm English and I agree with dreamingbohemian. The UK choice not to build housing is a pathetic excuse for failing to take our fair share of refugees.

We don't need to build housing. We actually have plenty. As well as all the second homes, there are around half a million empty homes.

I can feel (and share) your rage today @RedToothBrush

@Wrongkindofovercoat

Does anyone know how much it costs for someone from Ukraine to apply for a visa for the UK ? I watched an interview with a MP from Ukraine earlier who mentioned that other countries had waived their visa charges but apparently the UK hasn't.

The UK government website says that Ukrainians do not need to pay to apply for a visa.

BUT the problem is that the UK has outsourced its visa processing to a private company (TLS), this has been the case for many years. So you cannot simply apply online with the UK government, you then have to physically go to a TLS office and get your biometrics taken and submit all your documents.

Technically you do not have to pay to make this appointment with TLS but in practice often the only appointments available are the ones you have to pay for, this is what I found out when I went through this a couple years ago and what Ukrainian applicants are reporting now.

This is also why the Ukrainian refugees in Calais have to go back to Paris, it's not because the consulate is there but because the TLS office is there.

@Satsumaeater

We have probably half a million people of our own needing housing in England and probably a lot more than that

All the people with second homes can house a refugee family for a bit. I was shocked when I read how many people in the UK have a second/holiday home (ie not a home that is let as a residence). Given the so-called housing crisis, it's appalling.

There are also a lot of flats being built in London which only Russian (and Chinese) oligarchs can afford to buy. Maybe in an ironic twist we could use those for refugees too.

Exactly. Plus all those shops now closed down due to Amazon. They can be adapted at short notice for temporary use. If the UK government can shovel £75m of Help To Buy money into bonuses of chief executives of Footsie house builders, they can ask them to return the favour and make resources available for temporary emergency housing.

Instead we have a generic 6 point plan which looks as professional as a menu for a kid's birthday party.

@Peregrina

So who's side are our government on then?

Their own. Look how happy they were with Russian Oligarch's money - this was the sort of behaviour they liked.

How different is the money spaffed on Test and Trace from the way Oligarchs get so rich?

Not to mention the small countries like Denmark, Cyprus and Austria that took in more refugees than the UK

It is not about 'space' or logistics, it's about politics and anti-refugee attitudes

Yes yes yes to this. I presume Johnson is trying to keep his fanbase onside.

Even Greece have taken over 1,032 as of a WEEK ago. Probably more than double that now.

We are a disgrace. And I am writing to my MP, not that it does any good. He's old school awful Tory.

The prime ministers of the Visegrad Four countries - Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia - will meet in London on Tuesday to discuss the war in Ukraine, the Hungarian prime minister, Viktor Orbán, said on Monday in a Facebook video.

Orbán also reiterated that the government of Hungary has published a decree which makes it clear that no weapons shipments can go to Ukraine from Hungarian territory.

(Via Reuters)

perhaps we should urgently rejoin the eu

All the NIMBYs won't allow housing to be build any where near them.

We have probably half a million people of our own needing housing in England and probably a lot more than that. We also have hundreds of people crossing the channel each week who need housing.

Oh give over. Two problems in the UK.

1. One of the biggest issues with housing in the UK, is actually second home ownership. Our lack of regulation in this area is a massive problem. Other places in Europe which have similar issues with housing have a known Air B n B problem. There isn't a lack of housing as such. Its use of housing. That makes its an issue over inequality rather than actual housing.
2. Centralisation and lack of opportunities in regional and rural areas is forcing people to move to cities. Which is pushing up demand in particular areas. There are lots of areas with available housing. But no jobs... Hence why 'levelling up' as a concept was such a vote winner to begin with.

I do think NIMBYs are part of the problem. Christ knows I despair at people locally in how they've handled the issue. They aren't the main problem though.

There are a bunch of other things we could be doing to address housing issues, which also aren't being addressed because they are easier to ignore. Like banning developments with six £1.4million houses when the original proposal was for 24 houses when land is available like a development near me...

And stuff like land banking to drive up the cost of land and make more profit for builders. An inability to understand that there is a problem with lack of housing stock for the middle of the market which is only now starting to be acknowledged by government (about 10 years after people started saying it was an issue). Issues over social housing not being invested in by government - this is not a planning issue its a funding one.

All of this is, is with in the governments remit. All of this comes back to how much £££ developers are making. And how many Tory MPs have conflicts of interests in terms of how much they personally have invested in housing developers. (Ahhh the parallels with relationships with Russian investors...)

Its easy to blame on NIMBYs. Its easy to blame and barr refugees. Why is there no looking beyond that? Cos its politically easy to just give shit excuses and roll out the James Cleverlys.

I also do not think we have a lack of housing in the UK. We do have a lack of affordable housing. Particularly in the right areas. Big difference.

FWIW, I'd put money on the sponsorship scheme being most popular in 'NIMBY areas' with people putting up refugees in their own homes.

The political narratives on this are being set by people with personal vested interests which conflict with the public interest.

They don't match the details and they ignore alternative solutions that could be considered. They don't make enough money for private investors...

Was there ever a human in there somewhere struggling to get out ? If ever there was it has long since left the body. Spot the fawning Hollywood celebrities from 2010.

Worth recalling that 'half of England is owned by less than 1% of the population'

www.theguardian.com/money/2019/apr/17/who-owns-england-thousand-secret-landowners-author

It's not refugees and immigrants taking up all that space

BBC

More Ukraine-Russia talks to be held soon
A third round of talks is expected to be held between Ukrainian and Russian negotiators in a few hours.

We've now heard they're due to begin at 16:00 Kyiv time (14:00 GMT), according to Ukrainian officials.

agree,
they are building masses of houses near me,
but just not affordable imo

How different is the money spaffed on Test and Trace from the way Oligarchs get so rich?

It isn't. That's the point. I do not think any reasonably informed person can fail to get that now.

I have been saying for a long time this is exactly why the reason for the 2003 Iraq Invasion was established. Taxpayers money to start it and a mandate to make it look credible with the end game of private companies having a stake in oil revenues flowing out of Iraq for perpetuity.

Exactly @WeChallengeEverything

In Berlin all sorts of spaces were reconfigured into temporary refugee housing, including empty office buildings and retail spaces, off-season campsites, hostels, and yes people could offer up their holiday homes.

You don't need to find every family a permanent house the day they enter.

I am sure Usmanov's seized properties, Beechwood House in Highgate and the 16th century Sutton Place estate in Surrey can house quite a few refugees.

Yes yes yes to this. I presume Johnson is trying to keep his fanbase onside.

The opinon polls sugges that public opinion in a sizeable part of Johnson's fanbase has shifted and supports the admission of Ukrainian refugees.

YouGov @YouGov
Three quarters of Britons now say we should take in Ukrainian refugees, and in greater numbers

Support: 76% (+13 from 24-25 Feb)
Oppose: 11% (-7)

Its a problem for Johnson. The public is on the side of the refugees. Making sure his MPs know this is worthwhile. Johnson himself is a popularist. He follows the polls, perhaps too much. I'm willing to play the game on this one.

I think the government WILL crack in the next 48 hours or so, precisely because of this. It needs pushing though. Hence why I was prepared to send a rage email today. It wasn't one of my finest pieces of writing. It wasn't supposed to be.

I object fundamentally to being told that toddlers with bio-metric passports pose security risks.

James Cleverly's performance today, I suspect will push a lot of people over the edge.

There's also another exodus of people going on, which is worth reflecting on...
Felix Light @felix_light
Georgian deputy PM: 20-25,000 Russians entered Georgia in recent days. Insane numbers that will be much higher in Armenia, Turkey, and the rest.

Russian and Ukrainian foreign ministers to meet on Thursday.

Well done to Ireland, 1,800 refugees arrived so far since last week with the govt expecting to take around 100,000, fantastic for a tiny country.

BBC

Russia's Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov is expected to meet Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba on Thursday in Antalya, Turkey.

@dreamingbohemian thanks , had a look at Gov site and can't work out which visa they would be applying for ?

www.gov.uk/government/publications/visa-regulations-revised-table/home-office-immigration-and-nationality-fees-29-march-2019

Permitted Ukrainian 🇺🇦 refugee arrivals so-far:
🇵🇱 Poland: 885,303
🇭🇺 Hungary: 169,053
🇸🇰 Slovakia: 113,967
🇲🇩 Moldova: 84,067
🇷🇴 Romania: 71,640
🇪🇺 Other EU: 157,000
🇬🇧 UK: 50