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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 04/03/2022 22:14

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borntobequiet · 05/03/2022 09:11

@Febrier

I am surprised at the "women and children" aspect in this day and age. Why are abled-bodied women permitted to leave but men compelled by law to stay? If you don't have children, could you leave your men behind?
“This day and age” doesn’t change biology and vulnerability. Women are in general smaller and physically weaker than men. Children are the only hope for the future and women are best designed to care for them. (These women may not be their birth mothers.) However, recent conflicts (as well as historical conflicts for millennia) have seen many women take up arms if they chose to.
Lubeyboobyalt · 05/03/2022 09:11

@ClaudineClare

It's clear that the same sort of accounts could operate on Mumsnet - years of innocuous posts about breastfeeding or the annoying STBXH and then having established a backstory the misinformation campaigns can start...

Totally. This happened with threads about the vaccines too, I am certain.

Absolutely. Any forum with a lot of eyes on it will be targeted by Russian bot farms. Reddit is getting better at spotting and shadowbanning them - the things they do to catch them and get the community involved in knowing how to spot them are incredible

Mumsnet could do with joining the 2020's on this knowledge too (meaning the behind the scenes teams)

HiandWhatsThat · 05/03/2022 09:13

At the beginning of this conflict when the 'Russia will nuke us' all angle was played out in the media I was really fearful about Nato getting involved to support Ukraine. Rules are rules, after all, if Ukraine is not a Nato country there is nothing we can do unless Russia attacks any 'inch' of Nato space.

I am also aware that while the Russians are being gaslit our own media is not unbiased and plays to evoke certain sympathies at any given time. And then there are bots, Russian and others, it's important to remain critical of any media. For me, a rule of thumb is that the more evocative the message, the more likely it is some sort of propaganda.

Saying that, seeing in the media, how the Ukrainians are dealing with this outrageous invasion, the determination of their president and people, and witnessing the displacement of millions of innocent people is making me so angry. I appreciate some countries are supporting Ukraine in more subtle ways by sending in expert fighters, equipment and aid but it is horrendous and inhumane of us to remain passive. We are silently witnessing genocide, just looking on, worried about our own safety. It's a very dark week for all of us. Sending a few nappies and blankets to Poland is not enough, I don't know what is though. By the time Russia will done with Ukraine, there will be nothing left of this beautiful country with such a long history. I am ashamed to say that I didn't really know very much about Ukraine until now and my heart breaks that it is being destroyed by the Putin and his regime.

BurbageBrook · 05/03/2022 09:15

@turbonerd I don’t think you’re right on that. The minute NATO puts boots on the ground that’s an invitation to nuclear war. Not gonna happen.

AgnesWestern · 05/03/2022 09:17

I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think what Zelensky said last night in the press conference was fair.
I read that he said: “All the people who die from this day forward will also die because of you’.
Because NATO is refusing to implement a no fly zone.
I don’t think that’s a fair statement, countries are helping as much as they can do. I know he’s emotional and caught in the moment but he’s not thinking of the bigger picture.

FOJN · 05/03/2022 09:17

it's important to remain critical of any media. For me, a rule of thumb is that the more evocative the message, the more likely it is some sort of propaganda.

This is how I tend to approach media consumption too.

ClaudineClare · 05/03/2022 09:18

I am also aware that while the Russians are being gaslit our own media is not unbiased and plays to evoke certain sympathies at any given time

I think that is a fair point, we should not automatically believe everything that is reported is completely accurate. It is hard to judge though.

cakeorwine · 05/03/2022 09:22

@ClaudineClare

I am also aware that while the Russians are being gaslit our own media is not unbiased and plays to evoke certain sympathies at any given time

I think that is a fair point, we should not automatically believe everything that is reported is completely accurate. It is hard to judge though.

I think we can assume the basics - that Russia has invaded, cities are being shelled and hit by rockets and bombs from planes, that many people are dying, cities have no water, power or food and things aren't going as Russia wants.

And people are fleeing this.

notimagain · 05/03/2022 09:24

@cakeorwine

I am surprised that we aren't seeing satellite images of the destroyed cities. No doubt Putin would dismiss them as fake and it would be distressing to see but that would put even more pressure on Governments to act.

I do wonder how much satellite and other intelligence is being supplied to the Ukrainians?

Could be a whole host of reasons why..

The satellite images we have generally seen so far has been (AFAIK) imagery from commercial operators and they may not have a satellite operating in an orbit that enables detailed imaging of the areas you describe.

Something as trivial as cloud cover for a day or two will defeat visual imaging, and even when the image gets grabbed the damage, so far, may not be that compelling.

The western military will have different assets and I’d be surprised if the info is not being shared.

TheSillyMastiff · 05/03/2022 09:25

@AgnesWestern

I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think what Zelensky said last night in the press conference was fair. I read that he said: “All the people who die from this day forward will also die because of you’. Because NATO is refusing to implement a no fly zone. I don’t think that’s a fair statement, countries are helping as much as they can do. I know he’s emotional and caught in the moment but he’s not thinking of the bigger picture.
I think I can forgive a man under constant assassination attempts who has not slept for days, who's watching his country be invaded, his civilians killed and starved for an emotional outburst of frustration that he isn't getting the one help that will help give him an advantage in this war.

Was it wise no, was it pure fatigue, frustration and emotion, most probably.

Taytocrisps · 05/03/2022 09:26

@SpongeCake23 think of it like a giant chess board. Putin makes a move (invades Russia). The West/NATO responds (sanctions, supplying weapons, offering refuge to refugees fleeing the war etc.). Putin makes another move (chilling threats about retaliation if there is interference from foreign nations). Right now we're at stalemate. Who will make the next move and what form will that take?

I live in a tiny, neutral country (Ireland). The Russian ambassador to Ireland has described Ireland as being to the forefront of anti-Russian events in the EU www.irishtimes.com/russian-ambassador-says-ireland-is-anti-russian-1.4818697. Who knew? If it wasn't such a serious matter, I'd have found it all rather amusing. I might add that there is huge sympathy for Lithuania in Ireland. We have a history of conflict with a larger, more aggressive neighbour to our east (the UK). And a history of emigration/displaced people especially in the aftermath of the famine.

cakeorwine · 05/03/2022 09:26

I don’t think that’s a fair statement, countries are helping as much as they can do. I know he’s emotional and caught in the moment but he’s not thinking of the bigger picture

Is there more we can do?

Effectively someone is being horrendously beaten up by a much larger person. We are taking away their assets, their friends assets, trying to convince their friends to get them to stop - but we are afraid of stepping in physically to stop the beating because we concerned about the potential repercussions.

Once the person is dead, the people involved will face repercussions for years to come. But they don't care. They just want the person dead.

I know it's not that good an analogy - but it seems that is what we are doing.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 09:27

@Febrier

I am surprised at the "women and children" aspect in this day and age. Why are abled-bodied women permitted to leave but men compelled by law to stay? If you don't have children, could you leave your men behind?
It will be a choice for women to make which i dont think has existed before. I get the impression many will stay. But there is greater risk (which also applies to the men) if they stay because of the possible psychological and physical torture issue further down the line if things go south.

Women previously wouldn't have had this choice. It would have been an automatic 'you are on the bus'. No discussion.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 09:30

@cakeorwine

I am surprised that we aren't seeing satellite images of the destroyed cities. No doubt Putin would dismiss them as fake and it would be distressing to see but that would put even more pressure on Governments to act.

I do wonder how much satellite and other intelligence is being supplied to the Ukrainians?

If you make it public to everyone you are also giving the intelligence to the Russians who are having operational level communications issues so probably aren't getting this strategic information from their own side.
HiandWhatsThat · 05/03/2022 09:33

I am also aware that while the Russians are being gaslit our own media is not unbiased and plays to evoke certain sympathies at any given time. Just to emphasise, I am not suggesting I don't believe what we see in the media but I am wary of any media that is overly evocative or emotive and makes us react in a knee-jerk "we HAVE to do something" way. With this in mind, of course the reports about attacks, the taking over of power stations and the desperate exodus of Ukrainian families are accurate and I am appalled that Ukraine is left to fend for itself. We are witnessing the aggressive destruction of a sovereign country and its people and, seemingly, our hand are tied, it's wretched.

Taytocrisps · 05/03/2022 09:34

*Obviously Putin invaded the Ukraine, not Russia. And Ireland has huge sympathy for the Ukraine, not Lithuania. I really wish we could edit our posts.

Shuuu · 05/03/2022 09:36

@AgnesWestern

I know this might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think what Zelensky said last night in the press conference was fair. I read that he said: “All the people who die from this day forward will also die because of you’. Because NATO is refusing to implement a no fly zone. I don’t think that’s a fair statement, countries are helping as much as they can do. I know he’s emotional and caught in the moment but he’s not thinking of the bigger picture.
Ukraines days are numbered, he desperately needs a no fly zone. It’s his only chance at not just saving his country but survival of himself and his people. I think we can forgive him for this. The guy looks exhausted & sick. My heart breaks for him & his country. He won’t win without the no fly zone & he knows it. I’m actually surprised all non nato countries haven’t joined in as they know they could be next. Or am I being naive?
Feelingthepinch22 · 05/03/2022 09:39

@Thewiseoneincognito

Most of the big luxury fashion retailers have now paused operations in Russia since yesterday. Most likely due to the impacts of a collapsed Rubel and difficulties supplying their stores rather than a bold ethical ‘show of solidarity’, but it’s a good move nevertheless.

Unlike Covid closures when online shopping and mail orders were still being done behind closed doors, this time the Russian monied elite are not going to have access to the luxury items they love to purchase.

I would be curious to know how many people this move will effect, particularly with the economic inequality there between the rich and poor.

Me too, alot of the upper middle & class Russians (non millionaires) love their designers & holidays so this will absolutely affect them unless they travel to Dubai which they still can & stock up there.. The Russians travel alot.. We went to the Maldives years ago & our resort was mainly Russian, the glamour at night was unreal! Also when we skiied in Meribel pre covid, the resort was full of Russian families, however up the slope to Meribel 1850 was where the oligarchs had their homes... It absolutely will affect them.
NCdBcOuting · 05/03/2022 09:41

Re-joining from a few threads back.

Bots - I've always been curious about this on MN too. To those who understand this better than I do, for all the anti-vax, anti-Ukraine bots, are there also then “good” bots, to counter that? And who “owns”/directs those?

On women and children - agree it’s a new age in those terms. I do have DC but, if not and had I been there, I am not sure I would not have left my DH behind. I would look to stay and help. Of course easy to think that with no direct experience of such a thing.

MargaretThursday · 05/03/2022 09:42

@Febrier

I am surprised at the "women and children" aspect in this day and age. Why are abled-bodied women permitted to leave but men compelled by law to stay? If you don't have children, could you leave your men behind?
I am over 40, a bit overweight, not especially fit, and have a back problem. I could support in the background, but I wouldn't be particularly helpful in anything physical. Ultimately I'd probably be a liability.

Dh is similar, probably less fit than me, but is noticeably stronger and whereas I don't think he'd be amazing at fighting, he'd not be a liability.

Also I believe it was found that if there are women in combat the men on average tend to naturally go to protect them, even if it isn't the best thing overall, and putting themselves at risk.

So overall, I think I probably would get out and leave dh if I had to. I wouldn't want to. He would want me to. But I would know it would be better for him (and others) if they didn't have to think about me.

I think it would be harder though to go out and leave your (just) 18yo ds though. My ds is 14yo, some of the Ukrainian fighters and Russian soldiers I've seen in the news wouldn't look out of place in his year at school.
I assume they're 18yo, but they should be playing football with their mates at the park rather than handling weapons.

NCdBcOuting · 05/03/2022 09:44

@Feelingthepinch22 “ The Russians travel alot..”

Do you think that’s because they’re were banned form travel for decades under the Soviet Union, which only fully ended in the 1990s? That’s a lot of lost time.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 09:48

Lubeyboobyalt

My concern about censorship like that is always how it concentrates power.

How do you tell the difference between a bot and someone like me? (fwiw MNHQ know im real and have send me a mug to my home address before)

What i find most alarming is how young people don't understand the underpinning principles of human rights and the whole systematic need for checks and balances to prevent too much power concerntrated in one person / group (potential for abuse of power). Cancel culture is only possible because of too much power concerntrated and that enables abuses to be missed and outright disregarded.

Its a failure to properly teach these principles and the skills to think critically and source check that leave us most vulnerable. Its not an issue confinded to 'the uneducated' either. Indeed cancel culture is most rife at universities.

We have had a period where media studies was scoffed at and dismissed as a mickey mouse subject. Thousands did it at university (and then learnt tools of manipulation for marketing, advertising and pr) but the lack of basics on this at lower levels of education remains very stark. We have some minimal stuff about safety online but not really examining principles of accountability and truthtelling with it. It should be core learning not an afterthought cos its relevant to every day life in a way that so much we learn isn't.

In terms of this particular issue, one of things thats niggling away at me, is so much discussion about war crimes. Im not convinced its helpful at this stage because it also shines a light on western abuses. Thats fuelling a whole narrative which isn't helpful in terms of stopping more problems.

If this eventually does end up going to the Hague (and i have my doubts), the focus has to be in the very worst if this war (which is probably still to come) and there will need to be some kind of reckoning over western hypocrisy. But that time isn't now. There's too much more at stake in terms of humanity. Thats going to be a hugely unpopular position to take but i think its the pragmatic one.

Ultimately war crime trials are something that victors deal with. And you have to comprehensively win.

Thats a long long way off and shouldnt be taken for granted.

I think the huge complacency and erosion of material reality and truth has festered for decades. It needs massively addressing because its the thing that protects us.

There is a bitter irony and a very old quote that springs to mind for me

Thomas Jefferson: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

And we have cycles where we forget that our freedom is not guaranteed nor indefinite. We have to recognise it, appreciate it and value it. We are very much in a late stage of a cycle and thats scary.

We've been the unwitting tyrants at times because we've failed to apply checks and balances to all. And that substantially weakens us. Its a leaning towards moral superiority rather than a proper willingness for self criticalness and a space discussion and debate. Shutting down debate closes our minds and our ability to check ourselves.

The whatabouttery we see on threads like this doesn't focus on the issue at hand. It seeks gotchas to undermine. Its not constructive but destructive. It festers and grows on the seeds of perceived injustices.

Ultimately I don't believe in good guys and bad guys. I believe in less worse guys and really dreadful guys. There are no real good guys. And thats ultimately the lens you have to see the world through. Thats difficult to convey and to tackle when faced with black and white whatabboutery.

I've been saying this a long time now, but this is what has been missing from American and British politics for a long time now. And i think its actually what most people are seeking instinctively. Its the injustice that's been allowed to arise thats our achilles heel now. We need to see this to put it right, but we also need to see the danger in villifing those with misguided notions of bettering the world because their naivety misses the bigger true threat to freedom and safety.

We've definitely missed the mark and done awful things. But I'd still take that over living in a totalitarian regime because I understand the difference. I don't think enough people do.

Feelingthepinch22 · 05/03/2022 09:48

Absolutely, we have lovely Russian neighbours, they bought their house as a young married couple & have always stated how amazing it is to actually own their house. They grew up under communist rule where everything included their parents home was state owned. We havnt seen them since the start of the invasion but have been checking in on WhatsApp, they are beyond horrified about what Putin's doing...

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 09:54

are there also then “good” bots, to counter that? And who “owns”/directs those?

Not really.

They need paying.

We do have journalists though and thats essentially what their job is to do.

The problem is that theres been a weakening of journalism in this country in many ways (dont defund the bbc!!!) and a rise in opinion columns because they generate more revenue.

Traditionally our checks and balances were based on this.

Social media has eroded peoples willingness to read more than a few lines and click bait is more attractive.

There does really need to be a greater thought put into this by government.

And i actually hope its a wake up call to government (hello nadine).

Its all about the principle of check and balances. I don't see much debate about this principle. Only one about censorship. Its the wrong debate than only worsens the problem and leaves us more at risk of abuses of concerntrated power.

Squidinkk · 05/03/2022 09:55

I read that the president of Finland met with Biden and that they are on the same page regarding the current situation, and it may be that Finland could get support from the U.S. even if they weren't in NATO

Not to denigrate the support the US has given to Ukraine but you seem to be suggesting they would do something more if Russia goes for finland next. Why would they, if the fact Ukraine are not NATO is what's tying the US' hands?

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