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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 04/03/2022 22:14

Following on...

OP posts:
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11
ClaudineClare · 05/03/2022 09:56

I think we can assume the basics - that Russia has invaded, cities are being shelled and hit by rockets and bombs from planes, that many people are dying, cities have no water, power or food and things aren't going as Russia wants

Obviously cakeorwine. I am talking about the finer nuances of reporting, not the unassailable facts of the this evil invasion.

CaveMum · 05/03/2022 09:58

Totally agree with the theory that Putin was planning this years ago with the hope that Trump would still be in office. Perhaps he had better success than anticipated with the Brexit vote so set his eyes on the US then, or perhaps this was always the long game.

Also agree with the recommendation of “The Coming Storm” on BBC Sounds.

If you want to read a very good book on how to identify misinformation/conspiracy theories etc, I highly recommend The Irrational Ape by David Grimes (think that’s his name!). I haven’t finished it yet but so far it’s very good and where I learnt the story of the Soviet officer who averted nuclear war in 1983.

bluetongue · 05/03/2022 09:58

@HiandWhatsThat

At the beginning of this conflict when the 'Russia will nuke us' all angle was played out in the media I was really fearful about Nato getting involved to support Ukraine. Rules are rules, after all, if Ukraine is not a Nato country there is nothing we can do unless Russia attacks any 'inch' of Nato space.

I am also aware that while the Russians are being gaslit our own media is not unbiased and plays to evoke certain sympathies at any given time. And then there are bots, Russian and others, it's important to remain critical of any media. For me, a rule of thumb is that the more evocative the message, the more likely it is some sort of propaganda.

Saying that, seeing in the media, how the Ukrainians are dealing with this outrageous invasion, the determination of their president and people, and witnessing the displacement of millions of innocent people is making me so angry. I appreciate some countries are supporting Ukraine in more subtle ways by sending in expert fighters, equipment and aid but it is horrendous and inhumane of us to remain passive. We are silently witnessing genocide, just looking on, worried about our own safety. It's a very dark week for all of us. Sending a few nappies and blankets to Poland is not enough, I don't know what is though. By the time Russia will done with Ukraine, there will be nothing left of this beautiful country with such a long history. I am ashamed to say that I didn't really know very much about Ukraine until now and my heart breaks that it is being destroyed by the Putin and his regime.

The feeling of anger is one of the reasons I’ve had to try and limit how much I get invested at the moment. Targeting innocent civilians and turning previously busy, thriving cities to rubble just turns my stomach.
Gingerwarthog · 05/03/2022 10:02

In regard to the posts about women staying etc - lots of female medics still there. BBC carried a story last night of a Ukrainian woman medic volunteer going to the frontline with other volunteers.

Galdb · 05/03/2022 10:03

Apparently they can’t input a no fly zone as it would involve shooting Russian planes which would start world war 3. Sorry if this already been said or is obvious

DuncinToffee · 05/03/2022 10:05

Found the new thread

China has censored the Paralympics Opening ceremony, the China based broadcaster didn't translate and then silenced remarks by IPC president Andrew Parsons condeming the invasion of Ukraine.

The International Paralympic Committee president, Andrew Parsons, gave one of the most political speeches at an Olympics or Paralympics opening ceremony for decades, as he opened the Beijing 2022 Winter Paralympics saying: “I want – I must – begin with a message of peace as the leader of our organisation. I am horrified at what is taking place in the world right now. The 21st century is a time for dialogue and diplomacy, not war and hate.”

Throwing away decades of tradition of making only guarded comments at such events, Parsons continued: “The Olympic Truce for peace during the Olympic and Paralympic Games is a UN resolution. It must be respected and observed, not violated. At the IPC we aspire to a better and more inclusive growth, free from discrimination, free from hate, free from ignorance, and free from conflict.” He finished his speech by almost bellowing the word “peace”.

workisnotawolf · 05/03/2022 10:05

edition.cnn.com/europe/live-news/ukraine-russia-putin-news-03-04-22/h_f734201cee59a00360f6a3887b67d367

Just to get back to the discussion on “no fly zone” to be discussed by the UN (vs NATO).
Let’s assume there is a substantial risk that the Russian military allows some civilians to leave today on humanitarian grounds and then sends in a huge amount of planes in the next few days to level the cities they are targeting. Let’s also assume the argument Putin would run is that those left back are no longer civilians but those who chose to stay to fight?
Putin is making a mockery of the UN through its veto right. I said this on one of the first threads. I haven’t read the treaty in detail but surely there must be some legal argument to be run to do something? The UN themselves should not let Putin implode the whole institution and founding principle. I really hope there are some clever brains on this.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 10:05

The cease fire at Mariupol was supposed to start at 9am.

The Ukrainians are already saying its not being observed.

Obviously unverified at this stage, but doesn't sound like good news.

Thewiseoneincognito · 05/03/2022 10:09

@RedToothBrush Have there been Any more suggestions of Russia implementing martial law?

cakeorwine · 05/03/2022 10:10

Social media has eroded peoples willingness to read more than a few lines and click bait is more attractive

Absolutely And without going off at a tangent, it's easy to manipulate people and form opinions and reinforce opinions. Echo chambers, just showing negative stories about a group, just filtering your news so you just hear one side, have major opinion formers on your side and you can get people to be passionate about a view and turn a blind eye when people get targetted.

It's what Hitler did back in the 1930s. It's much much easier to do now.

You don't even need bots to do it. You just need enough people in their own echo chambers who aren't that good with critical thinking and to see how they are being manipulated .

You can see the struggle now. For years, we have had people talk about the refugees fleeing war zones and the awful rhetoric towards them. Now we see refugees fleeing war zones and it's blowing some people's minds as they have cognitive dissonance as they simultaneously want to support refugees but have said they don't support refugees fleeing war zones.

The rhetoric has created a negative view towards refugees in parts of the media. Click bait articles, negative headlines, furious commentators.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 10:10

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/04/ninety-per-cent-of-houses-are-damaged-thousands-trapped-in-ukraines-small-towns?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
90% of houses are damaged’: Russia’s Syria-honed tactics lay Ukraine towns to waste

Residents say shelling of Schastia and Volnovakha is revenge for standing up to ‘Russian aggression’

There have been terrible strikes on homes, schools and hospitals around Ukraine. But residents of both towns say the barrage of shelling, rocket assaults and airstrikes since the start of the war has damaged or destroyed nearly every building in their towns, a comprehensive devastation as yet unmatched elsewhere

The Russian flag has now been raised over the ruins of Schastia. In Volnovakha, the attack is still so intense that dead bodies lie uncollected, says local MP Dmytro Lubinets. Ukrainians still brave enough to run rescue missions are going back only for the living.

Thousands of them are trapped in basements, with dwindling supplies of food and water, sheltering from an apparently senseless attack on a town Lubinets says has no military defenders in its centre. The line of contact is 20km away, he says.

And

Before the war, the population of the town was 25,000. Lubinets says at least 3,000 people are trapped, but possibly many more. Hundreds of them are children. Requests for a humanitarian evacuation corridor have gone unanswered, so the military and other volunteers are risking their lives to bring people out in small groups

“We drive under fire to the places where people mostly concentrated, schools, hospitals, grab them out, put them in the car and bring them out, because the shelling never stops at any second,” he said.

“Its impossible to use buses because they have low mobility. Always when you go there you will get punctures, so you just have to drive [the car] out for about 10 minutes to places where big buses can come.”

NewModelArmyMayhem18 · 05/03/2022 10:13

One would hope that the introduction of martial law in Russia (if it happens) might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

The news is just getting more depressing by the day. And talk of public executions (for what? Protecting one's own country?) is just beyond awful.

Greattimestroubledtimes · 05/03/2022 10:18

Social media has eroded peoples willingness to read more than a few lines and click bait is more attractive

Yes, but also no.

The level of nuanced discussion on a thread like this is really informative.

The way that social media can get information across into Russia despite censorship

The way that images from social are also being analysed to reveal really interesting information about Russian weaponry and troops.

The amount I am learning from Twitter threads about truck maintenance and chinese tyres

TeamEponine · 05/03/2022 10:19

I’ve been lurking on all these threads, and I just wanted to say thank you to all who are posting with such knowledge. It has been so helpful over the past few days. Extra thanks to @RedToothBrush though - the wider context has been fascinating and really helped to understand what is happening more broadly with this war. So many things that I’ve thought about, all coming together. It’s absolutely heartbreaking, but having a better understanding makes it all a little less chaotic. Thanks.

Thereisnolight · 05/03/2022 10:20

.

FOJN · 05/03/2022 10:20

Do we have confirmation on who shot at the Sky news journalists?

If the Russians were firing at journalists I would be very surprised if they honoured a ceasefire to allow civilians to evacuate. They have also been targeting residential areas, schools and hospitals so I don't think they play by the rules.

Sunnierdays · 05/03/2022 10:21

I was feeling hopeful two days ago that the Russian people would help stop this war but with the rushed new law going through that anyone speaking out can be imprisoned up to 15 years has certainly put a quash on that !! The news stated that it every member within the committee voted for this law, are they too scared to vote against ?? As scary as it us for us here imagine what it must be like for the Russian people, I have also read that many Russians are not believing this is happening even when their own children have told them ! Certainly brain washed !!
Changing subject a little what do you think China will make of this surely they don’t want this to turn nuclear as this will have a massive affect on them too?? I can’t believe I am writing this today, two weeks ago I was worrying about what flooring to put in my hall, it’s unbelievable!!

workisnotawolf · 05/03/2022 10:22

Does anyone know what India are doing about their 20,000 students that are normally in Ukraine studying?
twitter.com/ndtv/status/1499671454144737280

aweekoldnow · 05/03/2022 10:23

@dreamingbohemian

I was wondering about this, about evidence. The Kremlin is saying that all the attacks on civilians are by Ukrainians in Russian uniform, or seized equipment. They are also saying I think that missiles have been sent off target by Ukrainians, and that they can prove it. Does anyone with specialist knowledge know how easy it is to prove anything one way or the other? Thanks

Please let's not give any headspace or airspace to these obvious Kremlin lies (and disingenuous questions about them)

The Ukrainians are not bombing their own cities. I mean come on.

It is a question of international law and so yes evidence would need to be established both ways. My question was about how easy it would be, not whether it is necessary and I had asked people who might have specialist knowledge @DrBlackbird so the "thanks" is appropriate! I got a couple of viewpoints last night.

I realise that a group of you have a very narrow viewpoint here and try to close down discussion, and I am thankful that other posters continue to post information about azoz etc notwithstanding that.

If anyone else has specialist knowledge here about how easy it is to gather evidence I would be grateful to hear.

The Ukrainians are not bombing their own cities. I mean come on
My question wasn't whether you guys would find it credible, it was about evidence. However, since you raised whether it was credible or not, there are many examples in history (ie history written by academics) of this sort of thing happening, and there are also mercenaries and other factions fighting in Ukraine and i suspect other agendas not yet unearthed.

DuncinToffee · 05/03/2022 10:24

FOJN Do we have confirmation on who shot at the Sky news journalists?

According to the BBC article they were told a Russian reconnaissance unit was behind the attack.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60627841

DialsMavis · 05/03/2022 10:30

The BBC are saying the ceasefire isn't holding and the escape corridor is being shelled. Thank you for these threads, been following them and they are so helpful.

aweekoldnow · 05/03/2022 10:30

@DrBlackbird

The Kremlin is saying that all the attacks on civilians are by Ukrainians in Russian uniform, or seized equipment

Whose saying this? As in, who on this thread is saying this?

The Kremlin is saying this - the ministry of foreign affairs spokesperson Maria Zakharova in a skynews interview - you should be able to find it quite easily on google. Other Russian analysts have said it too, i have seen another interview with a Russian tech analyst in the early days.

I think any info you get on MN needs to be independently checked by you to be honest, I am not sure why you think I'd be quoting another MN thread as fact.

FOJN · 05/03/2022 10:30

DuncinToffee

Thanks

aweekoldnow · 05/03/2022 10:31

[quote DuncinToffee]FOJN Do we have confirmation on who shot at the Sky news journalists?

According to the BBC article they were told a Russian reconnaissance unit was behind the attack.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60627841[/quote]
Someone upthread has said they were unofficial soldiers. If you scroll back you may find more info.

workisnotawolf · 05/03/2022 10:31

One moral question I have been pondering is that all of us that have access through media to what is actually happening in Ukraine are we somehow more complicit than certain parts of the Russian population who have no idea due to censorship?
I grew up in a German speaking country so spent my teenage years having to discuss the Nazi regime and complicity and how it came about.
Modern media has brought this war into the daily lives of billions of people around the world and it raises a big question regarding complicity both for ordinary people, politicians and the organisations who are meant to enforce peace.
Personally I am starting to feel that I need to look the other way and not “watch” the news because the feelings of guilt, shame and anger are increasing. I can read analysis but watching images with sound is where I am having to censor myself.