Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 04/03/2022 22:14

Following on...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
CaveMum · 05/03/2022 07:31

@RagzRebooted the documentary (that I keep banging on about) is on iPlayer. It’s called “Rise of the Nazis: Dictators at War”. It’s a 3 part series, we’ll worth watching to see the similarities in behaviour between Hitler, Stalin and Putin.

bluewanda · 05/03/2022 07:38

And this is utterly heartbreaking Sad

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10579573/Tears-little-girls-never-brave-daddy-again.html

marangu · 05/03/2022 07:42

.

jgw1 · 05/03/2022 07:42

@FacebookPhotos

That imagery of the world's longest POW camp that is not being fed is particularly stark.

Is there no requirement to feed POW? I thought there was tbh, but I’ve no idea why I thought that.

Thanks for the informative info in these threads as well. I’m a person who reduces anxiety by increasing my knowledge so it has really helped this week.

If the Ukrainians had captured the soldiers in the column yes they would have to feed and house them. But as it is, the soldiers in the column are in an open air, fenceless POW camp of their own governments making.
Garfieldismyspiritanimal · 05/03/2022 07:43

.

MarshaBradyo · 05/03/2022 07:43

Finland looking very keen to join NATO

I don’t blame them

jgw1 · 05/03/2022 07:43

@FacebookPhotos

About the war crimes accusation (which I believe to be true), if it were found to be true Putin would obviously just never leave Russia again so probably wouldn’t face a court or prison. But could it put pressure on other countries not currently using sanctions to do so? And put pressure on those dragging their feet (I include UK in this) so get a move on?
Might Putin facing war crimes become a bargaining chip for when someone else takes over the Russian government?

Look we are cooperating with the West we have given up Putin...

ParsleySageRosemary · 05/03/2022 07:53

I have wondered a few times what would happen if Putin now invaded Finland. It is a member of the EU and while that is not a military organisation nor a sovereign state, would the likes of China, India and Pakistan really not expect the EU countries and U.K. to respond? Would we just watch? Because nuclear weapons, etc?

workisnotawolf · 05/03/2022 07:56

Regarding Finland though, realistically, if Russia attacked them, wouldn’t EU countries get involved though regardless of NATO? The US wouldn’t be obliged to “help” but I can’t see France or Germany or even Poland just watching the invasion of Finland and doing nothing much.

borntobequiet · 05/03/2022 07:59

Totally agree that Putin was confident that if Trump won a second term he would have strolled into Ukraine with NATO in disarray and all the US right wing media acting as apologists for him. I doubt we’d have seen much action from our government here either - they’ve pretty much been shamed into the little they’ve done.
Putin’s plans have probably evolved over a very long time, since the fall of the USSR, with important assists being cultivated in the West throughout. The Coming Storm, an investigation by Gabriel Gatehouse for the BBC, looks at the origins of the January attack on the Capitol and uncovers much more.
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001324r/episodes/downloads

turbonerd · 05/03/2022 08:02

Finland and Sweden are very nervous at the moment, and with good reason. Both want to become a part of NATO now.
The Ukrainan president is blasting nato for not doing very much to help. I am thinking that it is not long before nato must Get on the ground.
Russia’s military is about 800 000 - 1 000 000 soldiers. Roughly 200 000 are currently in or around Ukraine.
I would like some reports as to the location of other sizeable chunks. A large contigent is already in the North after their drill in the Barent sea.

jgw1 · 05/03/2022 08:03

When one plays hide and seek with a 2 year old they go and stand somewhere and cover their eyes, and then can't be seen because they can't see anyone.

This is Putin.

Rather than taking in the information available to him he is cutting Russia off from any outside information.

I wonder if the stalled column is suffering from this. Is it possible that all the way up the chain of command those below are too afraid to tell those above them what is going on, so even though it is obvious to even the military experts on mumsnet that the column is stalled the Russians aren't accepting of that and therefore not putting in place a plan to sort it out.

MissMarpleRocks · 05/03/2022 08:05

Thank you to everyone for this very informative thread.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 08:13

Well well.

It was suggested that the Russians would announce a cease fire today for humanitarian reasons.

Because theyve run out of ammunition and supplies and its a good cover story.

Apparently corridors to be open 12 - 5pm today Moscow time. (Moscow is three hours ahead of us).

Being reported by major news outlets but no word on whether the Ukrainians think its safe enough to actually do.

Gordon Corera @gordoncorera (bbc)
NEW - Russian commanders have been killed after they felt they had to move closer to the front lines, western officials say. Deputy Commander of the 41st combined arms Army killed by sniper fire. A divisional commander and a regimental commander also killed.

Russian commanders moving further forward to get more control and impetus behind operations which have, in some cases, badly stalled. Those commanders are trying to impose their own personality on the battlefield but this in turn, is placing them at greater risk, w. officials say

Fragilities in systems,combined with remarkable Ukrainian resistance,has shocked Russian commanders, western officials say, and is having a psychological impact on Russian troops because of ferocity of the fight. But for all the problems, they are likely to adapt,say w. officials

Just as Russia's military plans have faltered, so have some of the FSB's plans for covert action and political change. And just as military is moving to more indiscriminate attacks, there are concerns that occupation of cities will see heavier repression.

This also seems to be confirming some of the other information that was filtering in last night.

Ive also just seen unconfirmed reports from Ukraine media that a large bomb near the children's hospital went off last night. This took out all the window, so an evacuation is now in progress.

I guess for an evacuation of the hospital they also have to think its somewhat safer today that it has been to even attempt it.

DGRossetti · 05/03/2022 08:13

.

FOJN · 05/03/2022 08:23

Reported by Sky News

The RAF's former commander of operations has criticised Western leaders for opposing a no-fly zone.

Former Air Marshal Greg Bagwell said he completely recognised "all the risks" such action brings, but said taking the option off the table "just makes the job of the bad guy easier".

He told the PA news agency that NATO doesn't necessarily have to be the organisation that enforces a no-fly zone.

Air Marshal Bagwell said: "I was disappointed to see that everybody immediately turned this into NATO versus Russia.

"Most no-fly zones I'm aware of, and I've flown on, have been under UN Security Council mandates or resolutions."

He added: "The reason why I think it has got to be UN is I think it needs that universal mandate... this is not a binary fight between [Vladimir Putin] and NATO. This is him versus the world."

The former RAF commander also said that the terms of a no-fly zone should be outlined publicly and made "crystal clear" - including that any Russian aircraft, flying in Ukrainian airspace, would be considered hostile and shot down.

This would allow humanitarian aid to be safely flown into Ukraine.

This former RAF Commander is saying that a no fly zone could be imposed by the UN. I thought the Security Council would have to pass a resolution for an action such as this and they weren't even able to pass a resolution condemning Putin because Russia has a UNSC veto.

I'm sure he knows more than I do, have I missed something? Does anyone know how a UNSC Council sanctioned no fly zone would work given the Russian veto?

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 08:25

Ruth Deyermond @ruth_deyermond
I wonder if what looks ever more like a huge military, economic, and strategic disaster for Russia is a product of a category error by Putin, who failed to appreciate what type of Russian military action he was starting. (A thread – apologies for the length.)

In the post-Soviet period, significant Russian state involvement in conflicts, Wagner operations aside, has been of three basic types. All of them have been ones where Russia had a clear military or legal advantage.

Type 1 (the earliest) was Russian “peacekeeping” in the post-Soviet separatist conflicts outside its borders. Russian interventions in the 1990s in states like Moldova and Georgia sided with separatists in order to obtain leverage over the government concerned.

This normally meant a “peacekeeping” presence in strategically useful regions (Transnistria, Abkhazia), preventing host states joining Western institutions. The presence was permanent because the conflict was never resolved (and vice versa). Pre-Feb 22, Donbas was another e.g.

These were relatively low cost operations benefiting from local support in the separatist regions and relying on (a) the huge capability gap between the Russian armed forces (even at its 1990s weakest) and the host state, and (b) the West not caring enough to do anything about it

Type 2, related to type 1, is the short war in support of a theoretically separatist region but where rather than keeping the opposing sides apart as peacekeepers, the Russia substitutes for the separatist forces and aim to secure the region officially or unofficially for Russia.

This was true in 2008 in Georgia, where a “responsibility to protect” the Russian citizens it had created provided a (not convincing) justification for its military action which allowed it to de facto acquire 2 regions of Georgia. Broadly the same logic applied in Crimea in 2014.

As with type 1, Russia’s ability to achieve its objectives fairly easily depends on the capability gap between Russia and the states involved (in the case of Ukraine in 2014, partly a product of the fact that the annexation happened during a period of wider domestic turmoil).

And though Western condemnation and penalties were stronger in these cases, they were still fairly limited - certainly compared with the benefits.

Type 3 is participation in an internal conflict on the side of the state concerned, rather than the separatists/insurgents. Syria falls into this category as, obviously, do the two wars in Chechnya.

Russia’s involvement in the conflicts (whatever the illegality of actions on the ground) was legal because in one case it was at the request of the state involved and in the other it was itself the state involved.

Putin’s language on the 2022 invasion of Ukraine suggests he thinks this an intervention of the second type – a South Ossetia or Crimea operation on a larger scale. The signs that the Russian government and military weren’t expecting a long conflict also suggest this.

But the invasion (or rather, the full scale invasion, since the invasion began in 2014) is none of these types of conflict – it’s war of a kind that Russia hasn’t previously tried to wage at any point in the post-Soviet period.

It’s a straight-up, illegal war of aggression involving horrendous war crimes against the civilian population, intended to effect regime change and to assert Russian hegemony (by re-orienting a puppet Ukraine back towards the “Russian world”).

And it’s not against a small, weak state with a small, weak army, and it’s not being fought in a largely pro-Russian region. And because it’s not an internal Russian issue, the war crimes being committed haven’t attracted the same semi-tolerance from external actors.

And just as importantly, partly because of these things, partly because of the cumulative effect of Georgia and Crimea and the wider collapse in Russia-West relations, the West is no longer indifferent or half-hearted in its response.

In assuming (and I have no idea why he did this, if he did) that he was involving Russia in a type of conflict that had worked for it before, Putin has dragged Russia into a war with devastating costs and which it cannot, in the long term, win. It’s a staggering mistake.

I do think its also worth reflecting on Putin's control domestically. He has tighten it and turned the state from an authoritarian one into a totalitarian one in a week from having a crisis. This is to Putin's advantage and allows for (even more) awful things to happen within Russian borders. No journalists means things go unseen.

We also don't really know what is happening in occupied areas - again no journalists. This is concerning. Mobile phone networks being switched off / blocked also isn't helping. The silence from places that there previously were reports is prettt stark in its own right. Its like they don't exist to the outside world anymore. And i think thats almost how you have to view it.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 08:27

Nothing will pass the un cos of the veto. Unless it's also in moscows interest to do so.

Wont happen.

Adesignforstrife · 05/03/2022 08:28

Along with The Coming Storm, I would also recommend The Puppet Master on BBC Sounds, also by Gabriel Gatehouse.

brogueish · 05/03/2022 08:31

Is there any way of getting round Russia’s security council veto? Could it be enforced by another bit of the UN? Sorry if that’s a stupid q, I’m not fully versed in the UN structures.

Thewiseoneincognito · 05/03/2022 08:33

@FatFredsFriedEgg

Apropos of nothing, my attention was taken on a twitter thread earlier by a very pro-Russian posting in very good English. The poster had only 47 followers and wasn't particularly prolific in their posts. Some posts on London restaurants, art, art galleries etc.

I clicked back to 2016 and they were a prolific 'THIS IS OUR ENGLAND' etc. Brexit poster. Intrigued I clicked back further and there were multiple tweets 'establishing their credentials', many of them in Russian, going back to 2013.

This is a 9 year-old account set up to undermine UK public opinion and therefore democracy. It's clear that the same sort of accounts could operate on Mumsnet - years of innocuous posts about breastfeeding or the annoying STBXH and then having established a backstory the misinformation campaigns can start...

Twitter is rife with bots. Indeed there will be many similar accounts here on MN who on the whole appear innocuous yet will be pushing certain ideas. MN is the perfect breeding ground for discontent, the same with Facebook. Plenty of people will be reading the threads and unfortunately will be easily manipulated by the subtle commenting,

Brexit is probably one of the greatest examples of naive people being misled by misinformation campaigns. It just goes to show how powerful a tool it actually is and how those in charge will seek to master the craft to further their agenda.

notimagain · 05/03/2022 08:34

@FOJN

I'm sure he knows more than I do, have I missed something? Does anyone know how a UNSC Council sanctioned no fly zone would work given the Russian veto?

Don’t see how it can…

The whole no-fly zone idea is a non starter unless there is some form of agreement with the Russians.

SpaceyCake · 05/03/2022 08:39

I'm kind of hoping that Finland would hurry up and join NATO already, but I can appreciate that it would most certainly trigger a reaction from Putin so they can't really make any rash decisions. I read that the president of Finland met with Biden and that they are on the same page regarding the current situation, and it may be that Finland could get support from the U.S. even if they weren't in NATO. I hope the U.S. mean it because I don't want Russia invading Finland. All of my family and friends live there. Sad

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 08:40

Itv news @itvnews
The deputy mayor of Mariupol has confirmed to ITV News that a temporary ceasefire in the city has been agreed, saying there will be several evacuation points for about 5,000-6,000 civilians to leave on buses today

This still leaves me with some nervousness. 6000 is not a lot given the size of those cities.

If you have ever read about evacuations for humanitarian reasons in Bosnia, Im minded to remember how women and children left on buses. And then what subsequently happened to the men left behind. I'm guessing that teenage boys aged 14, 15, 16 and 17 are in a particularly difficult position here because the risk of going and being suspected of being older (which puts the whole group at potential risk) but if they stay they are potentially at even more risk. Realistically at what point do they also end up picking up a gun in desparation?

Its a truly awful situation. I hope they do get some women and children out safely today, but realistically this is about allowing the Russians to regroup and rearm in order to take the city and do god knows what afterwards.

Ohmnomnom · 05/03/2022 08:40

I'm worried what will happen after the citizens have been evacuated. Will Russia use even larger bombs/weapons in those areas?