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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 04/03/2022 22:14

Following on...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
ChimChimeny · 05/03/2022 20:01

Would anyone like a thread for tweets relating to the war?. I see so many amazing/brave/heartwarming things on Twitter but I don't want to detract from the fascinating & informative content on here

VerandaSanta · 05/03/2022 20:03

@ChimChimeny

Would anyone like a thread for tweets relating to the war?. I see so many amazing/brave/heartwarming things on Twitter but I don't want to detract from the fascinating & informative content on here
Yes please
MarshaBradyo · 05/03/2022 20:03

@Justanotherlurker

I think we're often targeted because we're see as the US' 'man in Europe' and also we're mouthy.

It pains a lot of people to see, but we are seen as a strong nation and we are military strong and a nuclear power, it isn't because of a US man in europe syndrome, it is because we punch well above our weight nationally, we have been active and at the forfront in the intellgence with the US in saying this attack was imminent (remember when MN was trying to gloss over it saying it was a distraction for partygate) , we have been supplying amour/weapons into Ukraine since Jan along with the US because of the build up.

It isn't some DAE tories bad/olgiarch/brexit/insert whatever pet project situation, they have been playing both sides for decades, it is a simple fact that we are considered a threat, it really is that simple.

You’re likely right

On mn it’s often the opposite (jibes etc) but this makes sense

TokyoSushi · 05/03/2022 20:05

Perhaps you're right @Justanotherlurker

Livelovebehappy · 05/03/2022 20:06

I think we are too vocal. It’s a bad idea to pull away from the group (NATO) by trying to make our voice the loudest. We should be letting NATO be the combined mouth piece, as we are just going to put a huge target on our backs. We are dealing with an irrational man with a huge ego, we are just inflaming the situation by trying to stand out from the crowd.

itsgettingweird · 05/03/2022 20:07

@ThatDontImpressMeMuch90

I know most of us can't understand Putins mentality, but does anyone have suggestions as to why they would agree to a ceasefire and then breach it? Do you think they are being deliberately provocative/cruel or could it possibly be poor communication as PP have suggested? I personally find it hard to believe that such an important message could be lost be equally can't fathom why they would break the ceasefire. Surely that's a step too far even for him.
It has crossed my mind he's being deliberately provocative.

Targeting the most vulnerable (paediatric cancer patients/ those with send) to trigger a response so he can play his narrative out of it all being the west.

Autumnwater · 05/03/2022 20:08

With the potential of new negotiations (I was hoping they would happen today) what do people think? Will both sides compromise do you think? Without some sort of compromise surely it’s just stalemate again.

Surely there needs to be a path set out by the west for the relaxation of sanctions based on a withdrawal/whatever compromise. As much as I would love sanctions until he is disposed this surely would build up anti west attitudes. I just feel like there needs to be options laid out which saves his face and this hasn’t been a complete failed “operation” (as much as that pains me to say it)

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 20:09

More on the Bennet meeting

www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-700416
Bennett concludes meeting with Putin, speaks with Zelensky
Bennett is now headed for Germany where he is set to meet with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

Bennett was set to meet with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz. The leaders met in Jerusalem on Wednesday.

Bennett informed Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky in advance of the meeting with Putin, and called him after concluding the meeting, before departing Moscow.

The prime minister coordinated his trip to Moscow in advance with the US, France and Germany – all parties to the Iran talks. Bennett spoke with French President Emmanuel Macron and may visit Paris after Berlin, Kann reported. Turkey was also updated, as Bennett’s flight route was over their territory.

In addition, Putin and Bennett discussed Iran talks, with the latter emphasizing that Israel opposes a return to the 2015 nuclear deal, which is the aim of the negotiations in Vienna.

and

Putin and Bennett agreed to continue the deconfliction mechanism in Syria, Channel 12 News reported. Jerusalem coordinates with Moscow before airstrikes on Iranian targets in Syria, where the Russian Army is the dominant force.

Since Russia invaded Ukraine, Israel has been trying to balance the national security importance of coordination with Russia with Israel's strongest strategic alliance with the US and support for democracy and international order.

and

Bennett and Building and Construction Minister Ze'ev Elkin, who served as translator, both observe the Jewish Sabbath and flying on Saturday indicates that there was an urgent national security need.

Elkin has translated Putin for prime ministers in meetings for over a decade. The Kharkiv-born minister has a brother in Ukraine and was reportedly offered a cabinet post by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky after he was elected in 2019.

We know that Biden was also told before this meeting that it was meeting. No mention at all about the UK in this.

I would hazard a guess that the Israelis are not expecting Berlin or Paris to be nuked imminenantly from this.

Apparently Israel HAVE reiterated that their citizens should leave Russia immediately today (during the course of the meeting apparently) though this appears to have been in effect since mid Feb before the conflict started.

In terms of the Iran Deal

IAEA - International Atomic Energy Agency @iaeaorg
IAEA Chief @RafaelMGrossi is traveling to #Tehran today for meetings with senior Iranian officials. A press conference is planned for tomorrow evening upon return from #Iran.

He is supposed to be giving a public update on this today in Vienna (dunno if he has done this yet or not)

The parties to the 2015 Iran Deal are: Iran and the P5+1 who are the US, UK, France, China, Russia and Germany.

Hmm...

Anyway, I would suggest that this doesn't sound like significant progress has been made on a Ukraine Deal. Indeed reiterating that Israelis should leave Russia immediately isn't a positive sound at all.

Justanotherlurker · 05/03/2022 20:10

Sharing might not be in violation but the videos itself are.

Which still brings it back to my original point, you wont put that cat back in the bag, Twitter won't censor it as it will drive traffic to the competitors, considering what surfaces onto twitter is lifted from Telegram/TikTok and the random Ukrainian who has been issued an AK who is in a situation of putting downed pilots into the back of a tractors trailer isn't going to be clued up on the ins and outs of the Geneva convention or really give a shit when he is in the middle of an invasion.

It's the fog of war, and you tried to allude the tweet around sharing of videos, which you have accepted was wrong.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 20:11

@Tuba437

For the first few days I was a nervous wreck during this invasion, convinced the worst was coming. I'm better now (still on edge and nervous about how this ends) but better than I was.

With what putin said today about the sanction I don't know if it's the right time for liz truss to come out on Monday with an aggressive speech and a whole bunch of more sanctions?

Can we just lock Liz Truss in a lift? Maybe for a day or two.
Autumnwater · 05/03/2022 20:11

@Livelovebehappy

I think we are too vocal. It’s a bad idea to pull away from the group (NATO) by trying to make our voice the loudest. We should be letting NATO be the combined mouth piece, as we are just going to put a huge target on our backs. We are dealing with an irrational man with a huge ego, we are just inflaming the situation by trying to stand out from the crowd.
Yes totally agree and with Liz Truss who seems totally inept and a liability when she opens her mouth
PestorPeston · 05/03/2022 20:11

Maybe we do need to cut our consumption of oil and gas, drastically right now. Not just us the whole of Europe. It will cut the funds going to Russia and help get us ready for the inconvenient hardships that will be coming our way. I'm assuming people here have at least looked at the IPCC report report.ipcc.ch/ar6wg2

cakeorwine · 05/03/2022 20:12

remember when MN was trying to gloss over it saying it was a distraction for partygate

Without wanting to derail, I don't think people were saying it was a distraction.

Ukraine was being talked about. So was partygate. I don't think that people were thinking though that in 2022, that Russia would invade its neighbour.

Fiefofum · 05/03/2022 20:12

I really do admire the Ukrainian spirit and humour in these dark times. I wish I known more about them before all this.

The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8
TheSillyMastiff · 05/03/2022 20:12

@Justanotherlurker

I think we're often targeted because we're see as the US' 'man in Europe' and also we're mouthy.

It pains a lot of people to see, but we are seen as a strong nation and we are military strong and a nuclear power, it isn't because of a US man in europe syndrome, it is because we punch well above our weight nationally, we have been active and at the forfront in the intellgence with the US in saying this attack was imminent (remember when MN was trying to gloss over it saying it was a distraction for partygate) , we have been supplying amour/weapons into Ukraine since Jan along with the US because of the build up.

It isn't some DAE tories bad/olgiarch/brexit/insert whatever pet project situation, they have been playing both sides for decades, it is a simple fact that we are considered a threat, it really is that simple.

I agree with you, I think people to like to minimise Britain's power.

We have the best navy in the world, one of the most highly skilled and qualified Armed forces as a whole. Our military intelligence is highly respected and accurate.

We are wealthy, we have access to resources and trading around the globe.

We are politically strong being founding members of many global institutions like the UN and NATO. We have so many bilateral agreements with nations due to the commonwealth.

How many of this came about in our bloody history yes people can look back and think, yeah probably shouldn't have done half of that, but here we are. A small island off the coast of continental Europe with money and vast political power, and we have been that power horse for many a century.

Fiefofum · 05/03/2022 20:13

*had known

vera99 · 05/03/2022 20:14

I don't know how sound Mary Dejevsky is but the tenor of her piece rings true. That said she writes for the Indie, Speccie and Spiked.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/are-we-cheering-on-ukraine-to-destruction-

We’re just ten days into Russia’s assault on Ukraine and the western world has painted itself in Ukraine’s colours. Cities and towns have hung out Ukrainian flags and lit their public buildings in blue and gold. The BBC has changed the pronunciation of the Ukrainian capital from Kiev to Kyiv. Tesco is driving the supermarkets’ charge to rename chicken Kiev.

And leading the cheers for Ukraine’s heroes have been the legislatures, from London to Brussels to Washington DC. MEPs watched a video message from Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, in respectful silence before erupting in applause and tears. The US Congress gave the blue-and-gold clad Ukrainian ambassador a prolonged standing ovation at Joe Biden’s State of the Union address. At Westminster, the Speaker, Lindsay Hoyle, gave his blessing to the deafening applause, normally forbidden, that greeted Ukraine’s ambassador to the Court of St James.
All the cheering for Ukraine is as commendable as it is understandable, and it is hard not to be swept up in the fervour. After all, here is a David with a fierce sense of nationhood that has been subject to an unprovoked attack by its Goliath neighbour. President Zelensky has risen magnificently to the task, remaining in Kyiv and rallying his people as few other national leaders in recent memory. Ukrainians, for their part, have volunteered in their legions to fight.
So far, so inspirational. As one parliament after another cheered Zelensky and his compatriots to the rafters, however – and Boris Johnson started signing off his speeches with ‘slava Ukraini’ (glory to Ukraine) – I started to feel more than a little unease.
Here we all were, Britons, Europeans, Americans and their elected representatives expressing support as fervently as possible, in the belief perhaps that we were boosting Ukraine’s morale and their chances of withstanding the firepower of mighty Russia. But we have not the slightest intention of putting ourselves in any danger to join them. We’ve given cheers, sent equipment, up to and including defensive weapons, helped refugees (once they escape from Ukraine under their own steam, of course). But any intervention that might spur a direct confrontation between Nato and Russia – absolutely not. That is our ‘red line’. Now, our new hero, Zelensky has rightly denounced us, or rather Nato, for cowardice.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I am not suggesting that this ‘red line’ is wrong, that ‘our boys (and girls)’ should be sent to fight for Ukraine, or that the West should risk world war three. What I am questioning is the morality of urging Ukrainians into the fight, while standing back and watching them die. Might we not have done better to counsel caution and now, rather than cheering, to be lamenting the resort to arms?
Of course, Ukrainians would probably have fought anyway. They are defending their land and their future. They have a fierce loyalty to their nation. But this is suddenly war, real war, and Ukrainians are going to their deaths, their cities are being destroyed, and we are standing on the sidelines shouting ‘Well done, we salute you (oh, and we’ll send you some more weapons when we can)’. No wonder Zelensky is upset with the West.

If this conflict continues as it has begun, with minimal give or take on either side, Ukraine will eventually lie in ashes and the casualties could be in the hundreds of thousands. At what point should the West stop its cheerleading for valiant Ukraine and urge instead that its leaders cut their losses and sue for peace, to save their country and themselves?
I heard one retired American veteran say at the outset that Ukraine would be well advised to surrender on day one and focus on maximising its position at the talks that would have to follow. Such defeatism, as it might be seen, would have flown in the face of the patriotic defiance of Ukrainians, but, in the cold hard light of day, might have been a preferable course. There is a time for heroics; but is there also a time when the heroics should stop?
As Zelensky may be concluding with his attack on Nato for hanging back, there is a sense in which the West is at least partly responsible for where Ukraine finds itself today. It supplied advisers, and training and weapons, all to Nato specification – then all the foreigners fled when Russia responded.
Even as the US warned of Russian troops massing on Ukraine’s borders, President Biden said that if Russia advanced only as far as the Donbass, the West might find it hard to agree on a response. Then, less than three weeks before the invasion, the Nato Secretary General, UK ministers and others set out with crystal clarity that they would under no circumstances fight. Nato beefed up the defences of its members and pledged their troth once again to Article 5, but Ukraine was not a member – so, tough. Might everyone have been wiser, perhaps, to leave just a sliver of ambiguity, or were they banking, even at this late stage, on assuaging Russian fears?
The latest calls, from Ukraine and some of its western supporters, for Ukraine to be protected by a no-fly zone were roundly rejected by Nato foreign ministers at their latest meeting. So western governments will dispatch more weapons, pass on more intelligence, and marvel at Ukraine’s courage from afar. There will be no Nato planes over Ukraine and no boots on the ground. Ukraine fights alone.
An argument can perhaps be made that Ukraine’s stout resistance has gained something. The talks in Belarus have produced a joint agreement on the creation of ‘humanitarian corridors’ and, if Ukrainian reports are correct, Russia has dropped its insistence on ‘demilitarisation’ and ‘de-Nazification’ as conditions for ending hostilities. Without the war, though, there would have been no need for humanitarian corridors.

Before the war, Ukraine’s Nato ambitions were described by Kyiv, its western neighbours, and by Nato itself as non-negotiable. They will probably have to be negotiable now.

What will be left for Ukraine when hostilities cease will be a new story of Ukrainian valour and a new icon in Voldymyr Zelensky that will together reinforce Ukraine’s already compelling national idea. But this will not instantly rebuild Ukraine’s wrecked cities; it will not mend the millions of shattered lives, and it will not bring back the dead.

Mary Dejevsky is a writer, broadcaster, and former foreign correspondent in Moscow, Paris and Washington.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 20:16

We have the best navy in the world, one of the most highly skilled and qualified Armed forces as a whole. Our military intelligence is highly respected and accurate.

It has to be said that given we've been training 20,000 Ukrainians over the last couple of years, our army must compare fairly well compared to the Russians!

duvetdayforeveryone · 05/03/2022 20:16

@RedToothBrush We should lock her in Boris's freezer!

MarshaBradyo · 05/03/2022 20:16

Silly yes well said

As someone who comes from a country which is quite positive about itself I feel we’re not and often do the opposite (mostly due to the pandemic imo).

Sunnierdays · 05/03/2022 20:19

@Tuba437 I agree Liz Truss scares me almost as much as Putin !! Think she needs to know when it’s time to zip it !!

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 20:20

From the BBC live page

UK advises citizens to consider leaving Russia
All UK citizens in Russia who don't have an essential reason to be there have been advised by the British government to consider leaving

Direct flights are not available but travel is still possible via Istanbul and Doha, among other places.

To make it easier for people to leave Russia the UK government has removed the need to fill out a passenger locator form, normally required to comply with coronavirus measures, for those starting their journeys there, Transport Minister Grant Shapps has tweeted

'consider leaving' is not 'leave immediately'.

.

itsgettingweird · 05/03/2022 20:21

@TheSillyMastiff

What could the sanction us with? We only rely on 3% of our gas from them zero electricity and we have our own source of oil if we needed it. They are not a major trading partner or arms manufacturing for us. I mean all we have is their money in the bank, which is now frozen.

Perhaps this is what angers them, what can you hit the gobby UK with other than a scandal or two, but then again nothing would suprise me of our politicians; even if it came out that Johnson paid a Russian stripper to shit in his moth, during a bring your own bottle "business meeting" in No10 at the height of covid whilst Gove did lines of coke out of a oligarchs arse crack.

They'd just ride out the storm 🤷🏻‍♀️

I've been feeling really down about this this today.

However your post made me laugh really hard - because it's so scarily accurate!

DuncinToffee · 05/03/2022 20:23

Uk government uses the word 'consider' a lot

HeadPain · 05/03/2022 20:26

@ChimChimeny

Would anyone like a thread for tweets relating to the war?. I see so many amazing/brave/heartwarming things on Twitter but I don't want to detract from the fascinating & informative content on here
Just post here imo