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The Invasion is ongoing...Part 8

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 04/03/2022 22:14

Following on...

OP posts:
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11
MythicalBiologicalFennel · 05/03/2022 19:22

@AgnesWestern

Why have they aimed threats at us twice now?!

They said Liz Truss was their reason for putting nukes on high alert and now this? I don’t understand it.
All other countries are acting the same so why call us out specifically?

Britain is seen as having been particularly gobby and critical of Russia in the run up to the invasion - lots of public statements, Liz Truss etc. In the few days before the war started the Russian news was all "UK has said this" and "UK has said that'.
youhadmeatjello · 05/03/2022 19:23

Just seen the threats directed at the UK in particular and am confused as to why we have been singled out again.
Is there something I’m missing? I don’t think he means nukes. I’m more worried about some kind of bio weapon tbh at this point. Cutting off gas seems unlikely as we don’t rely on them so much. But the Russians reportedly nosing around our communication cables out at sea… that would be something to hit back at us with wouldnt it? :(
I can’t imagine they will respond with “sanctions”. What sanctions could they apply to us?!

He did also say that the sanctions were almost a declaration of war but has been reported as saying thank god it hasn’t come to that yet.

Did he just threaten the UK or are the UK papers only reporting on that part of it? I’ve noticed a lot of omission lately for the sake of sensationalist headlines

bluetongue · 05/03/2022 19:24

@Andouillette

Re critical thinking. Just a snippet from one of my DD returning from work last night. I won't say what her job is as it's not relevant but she works with a lot of younger people. She and an older colleague were discussing the current situation and some of the history behind it. The younger colleagues had never heard of Stalin, Himmler, Goering. One of them was baffled by mention of Hitler and didn't seem to know who he was. One mentioned that yes, he had heard the word Auschwitz but didn't know what it was. These are people who have finished school, have university places awaiting them etc. How can we expect critical thinking when education (in Scotland in this case) is so woefully lacking? Why are they not being taught such recent history? That saying about people who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it seems all too apt right now.
I’m in my 40’s and don’t remember being taught about those topics in school. I did know about them as a teenager so maybe I did and just forgot. On the other hand I was a very bookish child who spent way too much time in libraries so it’s more likely I just read about it through my own interests.
HeadPain · 05/03/2022 19:26

Pakistan made new deal with Russia to import Russian wheat and gas

TokyoSushi · 05/03/2022 19:33

I think we're often targeted because we're see as the US' 'man in Europe' and also we're mouthy.

Also I think the Oligarchs thought they'd paid us off to some extent, what they'd failed to realise, (something that we know all too well) that what this government says it will do, and what it actually does, are two entirely different things.

Let's hope Bennett has had even a glimmer of positivity in his talks.

VerandaSanta · 05/03/2022 19:35

I can't see anything about the latest threat to the UK? Does anyone have a link please, thank you.

vera99 · 05/03/2022 19:35

This is a good article it paints the Russian populace or at least enough of it believing in a mirror image of Trump's 'Make Russia Great Again'. I believe with the fall of the SU muscovites and others at least got their crappy soviet 'council flats' and their 600sqm of the countryside where they can build shacks, homes, allotments dachas etc effectively for free whilst the oligarchs looted the main productive engines of state So it was the equivalent of two homes free from the Russian state. So they can live on not a lot which is what they are going to get. Imagine an equivalent existed in the UK where you got a flat and a country plot effectively for free. You could probably live on fumes.

www.upi.com/Archives/1992/04/28/Moscow-ceremony-marks-privatization-of-100000th-apartment/4659704433600/

www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/03/05/chinas-xi-jinping-sits-pretty-amid-carnage-putins-murderous/

According to Vladimir Putin, everything is going according to plan.

Maybe the Russian president is deluded enough to believe it, but assuming they still have some way of knowing what’s really going on, not many Russians can genuinely share this view.

It’s not just that Russia’s “special military operation” is encountering a good deal more resistance than Putin seemingly anticipated, or that it appears waylaid by logistical mishaps, inadequate equipment and lack of military resolve.

It’s also that the Western response in terms of sanctions has proved a good deal stronger and therefore more damaging to Russia than he would have expected.

Putin’s assault on a sovereign nation has succeeded in uniting the democratic world against him in a manner that few even in the West foresaw.

Yes, Europe is still buying his oil and gas, and until this ceases it remains deeply complicit in Putin’s war; Europe is effectively financing the Kremlin’s murderous land grab to the tune of around $1bn (£700m) a day.

Yacht seizures and other forms of tokenistic retaliation won’t make a great deal of difference as long as this continues.

Yet by invading, the Kremlin has surely greatly accelerated the transition away from Putin’s gas to alternative sources of energy. Europe is finally resolved to rid itself of its addiction to Russian hydrocarbons.

My guess is that this will happen sooner, rather than later, whatever the sacrifices needed to do it.

It takes a particular type of maniacal self belief to consciously terminate your largest export market, and think this makes any kind of sense, but that’s going to be the effect of Putin’s invasion.

After the bombing of Pearl Harbour, Isoroku Yamamoto, commander in chief of Japan’s combined fleet, is reputed to have said, “I fear that all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve”.

Putin thought the West too divided, decadent and in love with its creature comforts to respond, but it is already clear that he miscalculated.

China’s position therefore becomes key to his survival. The West cannot defeat Putin as such. The Russian leader’s burgeoning arsenal of nuclear weapons ensures Nato’s inaction, potentially rendering direct military intervention an act of mass suicide.

Unless toppled by a palace coup in the meantime, which seems somewhat unlikely, Putin will therefore eventually prevail in Ukraine, though tragically there may not be much left of it by the time he does. They make a desert, and call it peace.

Yet Russia will emerge from the rubble completely isolated, and with its economy again in freefall.

Never mind the oligarchs, Russia’s emerging upper middle classes will find themselves cut off from the outside world, from their European skiing holidays, their villas in Marbella, and the Western luxury goods they love so much. Even if allowed to travel, they’ll be denied the foreign exchange to do so.

In terms of culture and sport, Russia is condemned to pariah status for a generation or more. If the calculation was that the West would eventually come to terms with Ukraine’s annexation, and carry on as before, it was badly mistaken.

Yet equally, it would be wrong to assume that Putin is without popular Russian support for what he is doing.

For many ordinary Russians, the “Wild East” capitalism of the last 30 years has not been a happy experience, with Soviet pensions and welfare rendered virtually worthless, and far flung communities, denied the once captive markets and supplies of empire, left to rot in the manner of America’s “rust belt”.

Putin’s “make Russia great again” rallying call has plenty of popular appeal.

All the same, it is no surprise to see the Russian leader use the pretext of war to impose all the remaining elements of the police state he appears all along to have aspired to.

The intention is clear; he means to rule by the only means left available to him – brutal repression of information and protest. Welcome to Soviet Russia 2.0.

It’s possible that a landmass as large and rich in natural resources as Russia could still get by as the autarky it once was, but it is likely to need China’s active support for this to be sustainable.

This is by no means a given, despite the joint statement early last month on the eve of the Winter Olympics to the effect that the two countries’ friendship had “no limits”.

The fact is that reasonable economic relations with the West are a good deal more important to China’s President Xi Jinping than cosying up to a fellow autocrat.

The threatened use of nuclear weapons, and the indiscriminate targeting of civilian populations will be giving China plenty of pause for thought.

The neutrality of Beijing’s current position enables China to extract some highly favourable contracts for energy supply and the shipment of other commodities. In anticipation of increased trade, the share prices of a number of Sino-Russian logistics companies have already risen strongly.

But as things stand, the pipeline capacity simply doesn’t exist for China to rapidly replace Europe as a substitute market for Russian gas. What is more, Xi will be wary of providing Russia with a work around for Western sanctions if there is any danger of the same sanctions being applied to China.

Beyond oil and gas, neither Europe nor the US do a great deal of trade with Russia.

China is a different matter. Deeply integrated into Western supply chains, and a major recipient of Western inward investment, China would not be able to cope with the sort of sanctions that have been imposed on Russia.

Nor would Europe and the US immediately be able to cope without access to Chinese manufactured goods. Like it or not, we are joined at the hip through trade and the finance that supports it.

It would be a hell of a win for Beijing if it could somehow broker a peace in Ukraine, but I don’t see that happening.

On the face of it, there is no compromise that would be acceptable to both Russia on the one hand, and Ukraine and its Western sympathisers on the other.

Putin is committed to conquest. There is no offramp. In any case, Beijing lacks the diplomatic skills for such a coup.

So Xi will sit on the sidelines, playing one side off against the other. It suits Beijing just fine if the war in Ukraine causes the West to pivot back from an increasingly hostile obsession with China to facing down old enemies beyond the Baltic.

The renewed focus in defence budgets on tanks and land forces also diverts money away from the naval power needed to limit Chinese ambitions in the East and South China Seas.

Xi will therefore feel under no particular pressure to pick a side, much as both Putin and the West would like him to.

Sad to say, but the biggest winner from the madnesses of tsar Putin is likely to be President Xi.

brogueish · 05/03/2022 19:36

Thank you @Satsumaeater for answering my question. I didn’t realise commitments like that were so worthless. That’s sad to learn.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 19:37

From Yesterday
Rob Gillies @rgilliescanada
MOSCOW (AP) A Russian lawmaker has spoken out about what she says are heavy losses being suffered by some military units fighting in Ukraine.
Lyudmila Narusova said that she knew of one company which was meant to be 100 strong but “only four were left alive”

This apparently is the VDV - the elite paras which we know got hammered. The numbers claimed here are something else though.

The quote translation is along the lines of:

"Yesterday the conscripts, who were forced to sign a contract or signed for them, were withdrawn from the war zone in Ukraine. But from a company of a hundred men only four were left alive."

This was during the debate of the Federation Council of Russia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Narusova
This is her

This also states:
Narusova on 27 February stated in a television interview: "I do not identify myself with those representatives of the state that speak out in favor of the war. I think they themselves do not know what they are doing. They are following orders without thinking." She also stated that Russian soldiers in Ukraine lay "unburied; wild, stray dogs gnawing on bodies that in some cases cannot be identified because they are burned."

She then preceeded to vote through the law on not allowing criticism of the not-a-war war and fake news.

(been trying to find an accreditted news agency on this story to confirm the translation is reputable).

Damnloginpopup · 05/03/2022 19:38

@DuncinToffee

An important message for sharing videos of captured Russian soldiers

twitter.com/MarkUrban01/status/1500186681697255427?t=hhmde09k58pmH57c2gCTGg&s=19
Am important message- a couple of the videos circulating today of downed pilots cross the line into verbal abuse and humiliation. There’s others of RU prisoners repeating Ukrainian slogans or messages. All videos of these prisoners are violations of the Geneva conventions

My understanding of the sharing of videos of POWs for propaganda purposes contravenes the Geneva convention.

I'm also a little sceptical that the videos I've seen are of actual Russian soldiers rather than Ukrainians in Russian uniforms making them for propaganda reasons. It would be very easy and very convincing to make and release and very effective at garnering support.

What makes me most suspicious us when the identity the soldier in the video or they identify themselves. That's going to see your family visited by state officials very quickly I'd have thought...

That said, they may all be genuine. I also assume that as it's not stare produced but private citizens (it's a social media war and it's something we all do now, video everything) it may not be an actual Geneva convention violation, or one that the govt might have to answer for.

Whatever the situation, I couldn't give a fuck about Russian troops alive, dead or captured quite honestly, 'unwilling conscripts' or not. Putin's invasion needs stopping and Ukraine needs to survive. Morals guide me in that respect rather than automatically accepting everything I'm shown as gospel.

NB I am not in any way advocating the mistreatment of POWs.

OP posts:
Justanotherlurker · 05/03/2022 19:38

An important message for sharing videos of captured Russian soldiers

Sharing the videos are not in violation, and that cat will never be put back in the bag now, in the fog of war some Ukrainian civilian (who was the captors) are not going to be clued up on the ins and outs of the Geneva convention, most stuff is uploaded to Telegram or TikTok and neither are going to bring stuff down (the Chechans are litterally salivating online about what they are going to do the Ukrainians and have done)

Twitter isn't going to bring stuff down now that there are rivals in the market as well.

RedToothBrush · 05/03/2022 19:40

@TokyoSushi

I think we're often targeted because we're see as the US' 'man in Europe' and also we're mouthy.

Also I think the Oligarchs thought they'd paid us off to some extent, what they'd failed to realise, (something that we know all too well) that what this government says it will do, and what it actually does, are two entirely different things.

Let's hope Bennett has had even a glimmer of positivity in his talks.

This. Its a fracture point.

They know that the Brits and the EU are having a bit of an argument about who is doing stuff and who is shirking the responsibility.

I keep saying it, the wedges are the EU/Anglosphere, EU/UK, West/RestofWorld, NATO/nonNATO etc etc.

We all know these wedges. They keep going for them to try and stop consensus building and unity.

Roussette · 05/03/2022 19:40

Yes, Europe is still buying his oil and gas, and until this ceases it remains deeply complicit in Putin’s war; Europe is effectively financing the Kremlin’s murderous land grab to the tune of around $1bn (£700m) a day

So agree with this. Unless we bite the bullet in Europe and cut off the gas and oil pipelines, thereby causing us much economic hardship, we are financing them. (As I said first thing this morning from Rory Stewart's interview)

Hlglu56 · 05/03/2022 19:43

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60631433

I think there is going to be a lot of civilian deaths. The Ukrainians have the fight in them but I think it will just make Putin more determined.

AgnesWestern · 05/03/2022 19:47

@youhadmeatjello sorry what are under sea communication cables for?

TheSillyMastiff · 05/03/2022 19:48

What could the sanction us with? We only rely on 3% of our gas from them zero electricity and we have our own source of oil if we needed it. They are not a major trading partner or arms manufacturing for us. I mean all we have is their money in the bank, which is now frozen.

Perhaps this is what angers them, what can you hit the gobby UK with other than a scandal or two, but then again nothing would suprise me of our politicians; even if it came out that Johnson paid a Russian stripper to shit in his moth, during a bring your own bottle "business meeting" in No10 at the height of covid whilst Gove did lines of coke out of a oligarchs arse crack.

They'd just ride out the storm 🤷🏻‍♀️

TokyoSushi · 05/03/2022 19:48

Right, I'm off to watch The Tinder Swindler for some light relief! Grin

See you in a couple of hours when hopefully a) NOTHING ELSE HAS HAPPENED and b) there's some positive news out of the Bennett meeting.

Tigersonvaseline · 05/03/2022 19:48

Vera 99

Thanks for that latest piece.

What about Pakistan?. someone from there I was speaking to said they are neutral? But Imran was there cosying up then doing deals?
I wonder what Jemima thinks??? her son's dad.. the world is turning their backs?

Has anyone heard from Merkel??

Tigersonvaseline · 05/03/2022 19:49

Silly.

I think more likely to try and cut that cables their subs were near??

Tigersonvaseline · 05/03/2022 19:50

Well I'm not sure it would be just our people...

HeadPain · 05/03/2022 19:52

DEC received £55 million in donations in 24 hours.

DuncinToffee · 05/03/2022 19:52

From the Mark Urban tweet regarding videos

Ukraine’s presidential advisor Oleksii Arestovych demands military personnel to stop filming demeaning videos of captured Russian pilots and soldiers, saying that Geneva conventions must be observed. “We are a European army of a European nation. Don’t be like Satan.”
twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1500162192867577864?t=KpKnsqvScskvzTBKGvvIaQ&s=19

Sharing might not be in violation but the videos itself are.

TheSillyMastiff · 05/03/2022 19:53

@Tigersonvaseline

Silly.

I think more likely to try and cut that cables their subs were near??

It would/could be seen as "an act of war". Not only do those cables give us things like the internet, they are military infrastructure also.

He'd be a fool. The navy regularly patrol near them and to be honest the Ruskies have been sniffing about them for the past 20 years.

Justanotherlurker · 05/03/2022 19:58

I think we're often targeted because we're see as the US' 'man in Europe' and also we're mouthy.

It pains a lot of people to see, but we are seen as a strong nation and we are military strong and a nuclear power, it isn't because of a US man in europe syndrome, it is because we punch well above our weight nationally, we have been active and at the forfront in the intellgence with the US in saying this attack was imminent (remember when MN was trying to gloss over it saying it was a distraction for partygate) , we have been supplying amour/weapons into Ukraine since Jan along with the US because of the build up.

It isn't some DAE tories bad/olgiarch/brexit/insert whatever pet project situation, they have been playing both sides for decades, it is a simple fact that we are considered a threat, it really is that simple.

Tuba437 · 05/03/2022 20:01

For the first few days I was a nervous wreck during this invasion, convinced the worst was coming. I'm better now (still on edge and nervous about how this ends) but better than I was.

With what putin said today about the sanction I don't know if it's the right time for liz truss to come out on Monday with an aggressive speech and a whole bunch of more sanctions?

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