The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

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Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

[quote notimagain]@SmellyOldOwls

There was a professor on LBC this morning saying that because the Russians thought they were stationed around the Ukraine border as an exercise they reported back that all their equipment was fine but actually it's not and isn't all suitable for an actual war.

I think the jury elsewhere is still very much out on that and many are worrying that the Russians might decide to revert to how they want to fight an actual war.

A lot of what has happened so far, certainly in the north, can be explained by having the first echelon troops and their equipment in the (very cold) field for weeks before the invasion (so hungry and morale through the floor) and then being briefed they were going in as a liberating force, which might explain some subsequent tactics (or lack of them).

It appears to have gone (unfortunately) slightly differently in the south, so this is not simply a case of the Russians having very inferior equipment, there might be a lot more to it than that.[/quote]
I agree, you look at Russia's advancement and growth of occupied territory of the south, it's been consistent and progressive.

I fear Russia will in the north will soon turn to its "preferred tactics" this will be mass bombardment and indiscriminate bombing.

It seems to be concentrating its main efforts in the south right now. Tactically this works for them it isolates Ukraine to one western border then. It will continue its advancement from the south in a linear line from the south seperating east and west Ukraine by a occupied central force too.

[quote Jisforjelly]@RedToothBrush what does that mean “he’s getting more, not less nato”?[/quote]
Reference to more funding and possibly more members.

An impromptu short notice meeting happened today:

Sauli Niinistö @niinisto
An insightful breakfast meeting with CIA Director William Burns, who has a remarkable experience in diplomacy and negotiations with Russia.

Thats the Finnish President btw.

I'm not arguing that NATO should go on the offensive but I just don't think that other countries are going to be left alone because they didn't get involved.

[quote Jisforjelly]@EsmaCannonball NATO is defence, not offence. Until a NATO country is at risk, we cannot get involved.[/quote]
Many many comments today that we are already at war with Putin as far as he is concerned. West is playing catch up on this.

My honest response, is that this is probably a fair comment.

History will say:

Russia invaded E Ukraine in February 2014.

Azov Battalion formed May 2014 to fight Russian invaders on their own terms.

Chicken, egg.

@EsmaCannonball

I know people don't want NATO to get involved and potential nuclear war but I don't have confidence that doing nothing necessarily equals peace. We really need Putin to be taken out.

Putin needs to be taken out by his own People, but Putin knows this hence the rumours circulating of "marshal law" to be enforced in Russia.

Putin has also signed decrees in 2020 to allow him to continue to be president for two further 6 year terms!

NATO is a defence like a PP has said, it's hands are tied right now, and thankfully so because war across the NATO nations is not wanted or needed.

Russia adds Twitter and YouTube to social media ban

Following the news Russia has banned Facebook, we're hearing reports it has also blocked access to Twitter and YouTube.

Tass news agency says Russian media watchdog Roskomnadzor has restricted access to Twitter, and Interfax news agency said earlier the service had been blocked.

A message has appeared on the regulator's website that access to Twitter was limited on the basis of a decision from the Prosecutor General’s Office on 24 February - the day Russia launched its invasion.

Facebook's parent company Meta says Instagram and WhatsApp - which it also owns - are still working.

YouTube, Twitter and Facebook are among the most popular social media platforms in Russia, with tens of thousands of users across the country.

BBC

'Marshal Law' sounds like a character out of a John Wayne film.

It's 'martial', like 'martial arts' - relating to fighting or war

[quote brogueish]@Bluebellsunderthetrees you really have a bee in your bonnet about this don’t you. It’s a bit peculiar, with all of the shelling of civilians, cities under siege, indiscriminate attacks, lies and misinformation doing the rounds, you seem remarkably preoccupied with the Azov issue.[/quote]
Because it is actually really important or don't you care?
The two regions of Ukraine that have declared Independence - if like loads of posters have demanded on here they should remain part of the Ukraine. Say Ukraine wins maybe with our help and we let that happen, what fate do you think those people will face at the hands of those Ukrainian ultra nationalist soldiers with carte blanche from the adoring West?
On one of the very early threads a poster ( I believed a regular) said her family lived there and it so upset her what was said because her family suffers beatings and no vote. She said she wouldn't be back to post.
I do not support these kinds of people regardless if they are fighting Russia. They are as bad . It is possible to be against both but to deny they exist just because Putin mentions them. Hypocritical and a loss of humanity and moral standing.

Just to repeat "We are concerned about rising nationalism in Ukraine and the government’s seeming unwillingness to rein it in. Ukraine’s international donors and supporters should be very worried,” said Tanya Cooper, Ukraine researcher for Human Rights Watch

Yes but if he loses the army, police refuse to arrest then what can he do

@FatFredsFriedEgg

'Marshal Law' sounds like a character out of a John Wayne film.

It's 'martial', like 'martial arts' - relating to fighting or war

It's my autocorrect, I ended up saying someone had gone "rouge" the other day 😂

I type "mar" and hit the space bar it it completes to marshal instead of martial, sometimes it decided to go marital also 🤷🏻‍♀️ my phone has gone "rouge"

The two regions of Ukraine that have declared Independence

They didn't just 'declare independence' though did they? And the 'helpers' they had in achieving 'independence' were every bit as much nationalistic thugs (although aligned to a different nation) as the Azov Battalion which was formed to counter them.

It's my autocorrect

'Marital' law would be better on MN I think!

Because it is actually really important or don't you care?

It is really important to you, yes that is clear.

Less than 24hours ago the out of control Russian army nearly blew up Europe's nuclear plant.
Your post is about as relevant to the current situation as those posting about Keir's beer were to Boris having a birthday party whilst telling millions of children that it would be breaking the law to do so.

news.sky.com/story/sky-news-teams-harrowing-account-of-their-violent-ambush-in-ukraine-this-week-12557585
Sky News team's harrowing account of their violent ambush in Ukraine this week

On Monday, near Kyiv, chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay and his team were attacked. Camera operator Richie Mockler took two rounds to his body armour, Stuart was wounded. Their experience illustrates the scale of the mayhem and violence as Russia's invasion enters a new and deadlier phase.

This would go a long way to explain why Sky's Mark Austin left Kyiv on Wednesday.

inews.co.uk/news/weve-felt-explosions-shake-the-hotel-the-bbc-team-fighting-exhaustion-to-report-from-kyiv-bunker-1498365
‘We’ve felt explosions shake the hotel’: The BBC team fighting exhaustion to report from Kyiv bunker
Exclusive A BBC News team based in a Kyiv underground shelter is battling bombs and food shortages to bring viewers nightly reports

This second article is about Clive Myrie and Lyse Doucet's crew. It also highlights a little about how dangerous it is.

I suspect, they too, may well be leaving in a day or two from this

The armoured Russian convoy just north of the Ukraine capital is making its presence felt, squeezing supplies. “Rationing is going on already.”

“We have to plan for the worst case scenario and we can see what’s happening in other cities. We can’t eat and drink normally to the point where there’s nothing left.”

Apparently there are currently around 1300 foreign journalists working in Ukraine.

Reflecting on whats happening in Russia with the new laws on fake news, this really highlights the importance of journalists and how we take them for granted .

I’ve been following since these threads began. Thank you for some brilliant posts.
I just wanted to recommend a couple of things on tv. Winter on fire on Netflix about the 2014 revolution. Also Reggie Yates extreme, 3 episodes about Russia. Made in 2015 very interesting to watch now.

@jgw1

Irony of you telling anyone what's relevant when you seem to regard this war as an opportunity to criticise the tories and bang on about Corbyn.

A region can't just "declare independence" and it was only Russia that declared them "independent" not the Ukraine government of which these areas existed withing it's sovereignty.

It would be akin to Scotland and Wales just suddenly declaring independence from the UK , starting an internal civil war and then America coming along and saying "hush Westminster, they are clearly now independent states"

Hmm.

Has MN been banned in Russia yet? Anyone know? Have we made the list yet??

Especially the episode on the far right.

@aweekoldnow that is some commitment wading through six years of very long speeches, essays and interviews !
It is fairly clear that he doesn't see Ukraine as a legitimate independent state, he see's it as being part of Russia. He has been vociferous in his condemnation of the election that saw Zelensky voted in.
He has made statements saying he believed it to be as a result of interference of foreign powers. Given how much experience he has in that particular field, maybe he is disgruntled knowing how easy it is to sway a population to vote for something not always in their best interests and the buggers went against it. Perhaps he is genuinely struggling with the idea that Ukrainians chose democracy, as flawed as that often is, despite his best efforts ?
Who knows ? but I suspect he is as worried about democracy is as he is about covid, both being fairly contagious and both might not have great outcomes for him personally.

@TheSillyMastiff

A region can't just "declare independence" and it was only Russia that declared them "independent" not the Ukraine government of which these areas existed withing it's sovereignty.

It would be akin to Scotland and Wales just suddenly declaring independence from the UK , starting an internal civil war and then America coming along and saying "hush Westminster, they are clearly now independent states"

Ask Catalonia about this...

Very good if depressing documentary series about Putin on C4 player. Only seen the first 2 episodes but explains how a somewhat diffident 'fixer' who kept out of the public eye transformed himself into an authoritarian man of the people. Right from the start he was corrupt and made himself indispensable to other equally corrupt but higher up the chain individuals like the mayor of St Petersberg and Yeltsin. He was unknown when Yeltsin named him as successor but quickly dropped Yeltsin when he was of no use.
What I didn't know was that many of the wealthy oligarchs who ended up in London were initially friendly with Putin but fled because of his stance on preventing them from becoming involved with politics. One was a supporter who owned a TV station which ended up blaming Putin for the death of a journalist for example. Makes me wonder which type of oligarch funded the tory party and why ? Pro or anti putin ?

Fro Georgia. In support of Ukraine. Very moving

twitter.com/mikegalsworthy/status/1499855433019928583

[quote Yeahthat]@jgw1

Irony of you telling anyone what's relevant when you seem to regard this war as an opportunity to criticise the tories and bang on about Corbyn.[/quote]
@Yeahthat were you not aware that Putin would not have started this war if Corbyn wasn't friends with terrorists?