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The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 03/03/2022 20:56

Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
RedToothBrush · 04/03/2022 20:24

Dr Sarah Taber @SarahTaber_bww
Quick intro on Ukraine & grain:

Grain exports are not new! Greek city-states set up grain export colonies on Ukraine's Black Sea coast close to 3,000 years ago.

About half of Athens's grain came from Ukraine. If you want to talk "cradles of democracy," well.

A lot of Ukraine's Black Sea ports got their start as ancient Greek grain hubs: Sevastopol, Odessa, etc.

Funny enough the best info I could find for this history is case law. Athenian grain traders launched one of the first known antimonopoly case lol

Today the areas most reliant on Ukrainian grain are still the eastern Mediterranean & mideast. That's not too different from the situation in ancient Greece. Large cities in arid areas have a hard time growing enough grain to feed everybody, & Ukraine is the closest breadbasket.

Some places are already feeling bread shortages: Egypt, Yemen, and Lebanon. All of them already had food security challenges.

As soon as Ukraine's ports weren't able to ship grain, these places felt it in their food stocks almost immediately.

Hopefully grain shipments from elsewhere arrive soon. Cargo ships from India, Australia, South Africa, Brazil, Argentina, US, Canada, & other wheat exporters take longer to reach eastern med. Even if they left immediately once conflict started, they'd still be en route.

So far it looks like most of the grain & oilseed disruptions are loss of shipping ports. It's about inability to ship crops out of Ukraine, not inability to grow them.

If Russian leaves quickly & ports are ~intact, Ukraine's grain exports could bounce back quickly.

This is a v different scenario from WWI- which funny enough, even though it was 100+ years ago, is still the prototype for how we think about "wartime disruptions in grain supply."

WWI wrecked ports. But it also straight up killed a lot of the young poor men who did farm labor in Europe, where ag was mostly still done by hand.

And lots & lots of farmland was occupied by trench warfare & no man's lands. WWI kept grain from growing, nvmd getting shipped.

So far most of the fighting in Ukraine is urban. It's too muddy & sticky for Russian tanks to go rolling across fields & wrecking crops, even if they wanted to. When they move city to city they have to stick to single-file convoys on roads.

This is the legendary chornozem soil at work. Dark grassland soils with so much organic matter, they suck up water all winter long & stay pretty moist even during summer dry spells.

they are a BITCH on heavy artillery in cold, sloppy spring weather though lmaooooooo

This this is a war crime on wheels: thermobaric bomb launcher, known for big kill radius, horrifying deaths, & high civilian casualties.

And it can't go fuckin anywhere bc it tried to go off-roading on wet chornozem in springtime.

btw this isn't. like. specialized war-doer knowledge. Everyone in ag has to deal w moving heavy equipment over wet mucky fields in spring.

we're usually just hauling seeders & shit instead of artillery

So anyway, this is why Russian convoys are sticking to the roads.

As spring progresses & fields dry down, they will have more freedom to move heavy artillery straight across fields instead of using roads. That is bad news for grain yields & extremely bad news for Ukrainians.

Ukraine's wheat crops are mostly winter wheat.

That means you plant the seeds in fall, & they grow lil green leaves & then go dormant over winter. Then they mature in spring/summer into the ripe fields of grain.

So right now, the wheat crop is already planted and just chillin in the field. Where tanks fear to tread.

Based on what we're seeing in the news (big asterisk), the wheat crop is probably mostly undisturbed by the invasion. So far.

The next big event in Ukraine's crop calendar is planting sunflowers & corn. Those are summer crops, planted in spring & harvested in late summer/fall.

Ukraine's summer crop seasons roughly line up with northern US's. Planting is in May-ish & harvest is Sept-Nov-ish.

So if the Russian Army's still running around Ukraine in April/May, that likely means far less corn & sunflowers planted.

We're already anticipating wrecked roads & high price for seed, fertilizer, & gas. That doesn't necessarily stop planting but makes it ₴₴₴ expensive.

After spring planting for corn & sunflowers, the next job is harvesting wheat in mid/late summer. The wheat fields are (probably) ok rn. But again the more Russian tanks still running around Ukraine in midsummer, the less will get harvested. And can't ship it w/out working ports.

I don't love trying to make long-distance forecasts for a crop region I don't know very well, during an invasion that keeps catching the invaders by surprise

but yeah tl;dr the sooner Russia GTFOs the better

As far as potential food shortages, the problem is rarely a real food shortage.

The problem is food prices go high enough that a lot of people can't afford food.

The problem is poverty. Not "there isn't enough food to go around."

In the midst of the war effort food policy ppl need to keep an eye on Ukraine's more vulnerable grain customers, as well as Ukraine itself.

They are probably way ahead of me on this but it's worth repeating.

Also, if you're an aficionado of vulture capitalism, search "grain futures" on google or even right here on twitter.

the farmers & grain traders thirst posting about food shortages I MEAN high prices is really something to behold : /

Another point I've seen today which is that when you look at maps with the red shading for what is controlled by Russia, don't assume that everything else is controlled by Ukraine. The reality is that, large areas of the country which are miles upon miles of fields aren't controlled by anyone atm...

endlesscraziness · 04/03/2022 20:24

@TheSillyMastiff considering Truss encouraged British people to go fight, it would be a shit show if they arrested them on return. Yes other senior tories rebutted it but the Foreign Secretary suggested it!

Roussette · 04/03/2022 20:24

twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1499766468610863106

Buckle up. Come on a tour of London with a difference and find out how Putin's oligarchs hide and spend their money in the capital. Money-laundering expert

We have a lot to answer for.

Bluebellsunderthetrees · 04/03/2022 20:24

@MusicMan65

While I'm here, let's also nail Putin's lies about "Nazis".

Having suffered unimaginably under Stalin, when in 1941 the Nazis invaded Russia, some Ukrainians did choose to fight with them on the basis that, however brutal the Nazis might be, they at least didn't steal all the Ukrainians' food as Stalin had done a few years before (see previous post).

If the only two alternatives available in the real world are both extremely brutal, then the only choice for any of us is what we think is the "least worst" alternative of the two. Having experienced Stalin's rule, it would have made perfect sense at the time to some Ukrainians to join the Nazis to fight against Bolshevism and just hope that the Nazis might become a bit less brutal. Nazi promises to Ukraine in 1941-2 about "independence" etc were of course also just lies, but some people believed them.

SO - if Putin claims that some Ukrainians fought with the Nazis in WW2 he is semantically correct. However, the present day Ukrainian Nazis are a very VERY tiny minority, as they are also in Poland, Hungary, Germany and, erm, Russia.

Let's be clear about this. Ukraine, with no previous history as a country and no tradition of democracy, has in 30 years done as much as any country possibly could to fight internal corruption and establish true democracy, despite malicious interference from Russia. The real Nazi here is Putin, who is operating exactly as Hitler once did.

It's not just Putin concerned about Nazis in Ukraine. The Azov regiment in the state army. I don't think Poland for example has anything comparable at all The UN has documented a long list of human rights abuse by them over years including laying landmines breaking a Treaty in doing so and killing people just walking home. Rape torture and murder of a disabled man. Kidnap and torture. Killing men woman and children. The list goes on. They are in the army If so unimportant why does Ukraine not remove them from its army?

The UK has huge concerns: www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/neo-nazi-groups-recruit-britons-to-fight-in-ukraine

"Neo-Nazi groups involved in the fighting in Ukraine are actively seeking to recruit British far-right activists, a leading anti-fascist watchdog has warned."

The US has huge concerns and stopped providing money and training to the Ukraine Army They went back on that in 2017 and also started to supply weapons because Ukraine's fascist were fighting the Russian. Similar to their policy in the Middle East and we saw what terrorist groups grew out of that .
"Washington has armed Ukraine with Javelin antitank missile systems and trained its armed forces as they fight Russia-backed separatists in the east.

But it has banned arms from going to Azov members and forbidden them from participating in U.S.-led military training because of their far-right ideology."

www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2019/02/15/defend-the-white-race-american-extremists-being-co-opted-by-ukraines-far-right/

Newly uncovered evidence going back to 2015 suggests that the Ukrainian white nationalist Azov movement has been systematically co-opting American right-wing extremists to advance the former’s own international agenda. In audio statements uncovered by Bellingcat, this agenda was summarized by the International Secretary of the political wing of Azov, the National Corps, as “world conservative revolution,” aimed to “defend the white race.” These new findings are separate from the recently reported ties between Azov and American violent neo-Nazi group the Rise Above Movement, and members of the American alt-right.

France has concerns about them foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/17/theres-one-far-right-movement-that-hates-the-kremlin-azov-ukraine-biletsky-nouvelle-droite-venner/

The Greeks have concerns as they target them and the Ukrainian soldiers murdered a Greek Ukrainian just in Feb. www.euractiv.com/section/politics/short_news/two-greeks-shot-dead-by-ukrainian-soldiers/

They are setting their sights on Europe
"We think globally," Olena Semenyaka, the international secretary for Azov's political wing, the National Corps, told RFE/RL in an interview at one of the group's Kyiv offices last week."

www.rferl.org/a/azov-ukraine-s-most-prominent-ultranationalist-group-sets-its-sights-on-u-s-europe/29600564.html

FB had banned them although lifted currently while they fight the Russians www.businessinsider.com/facebook-reverses-ban-praise-ukraine-far-right-forces-2022-2?r=US&IR=T

www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/nov/22/facebook-condemned-for-hosting-neo-nazi-network-with-uk-links

time.com/5926750/azov-far-right-movement-facebook/

Much much more Check out The Guardian They have loads of articles on them

Even Ukrainians
“We are concerned about rising nationalism in Ukraine and the government’s seeming unwillingness to rein it in. Ukraine’s international donors and supporters should be very worried,” said Tanya Cooper, Ukraine researcher for Human Rights Watch.*

But yeah nothing to see here Grin

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2022 20:27

Also this:

Innvandrer i Norge@aTakefromNorway
More that Russia has an economy smaller than Italy’s and tries to maintain an armed forces the size of the US. Somewhere the math is going to fail and you end up buying cheep knock offs.
Throw in systemic corruption and skimming and the wheels literally come off.

alltheapples · 04/03/2022 20:27

The BBC have produced podcasts about the Ukraine invasion.

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/p0bqztzm

MythicalBiologicalFennel · 04/03/2022 20:28

@dottyshihtzu

From The Guardian:

This just in: Russia has banned Twitter throughout the country, according to Interfax news agency.

This story is developing- more details to come.

Probably a stupid question sorry, but what will the people of Russia make of all this banning? Are they told it's to protect them from propaganda, anti Russian sentiment, etc?

They are told that there is unprecedented Russophobia in the world and that the West is committing information terrorism. I wish I were making this up.

However I think that the mental gymnastics that the Putin believers need to perform to make all the lies fit together is getting unsustainable. Certainly the banning of Twitter and Facebook will make many fence-sitters question the regime.

brogueish · 04/03/2022 20:31

@Bluebellsunderthetrees you really have a bee in your bonnet about this don’t you. It’s a bit peculiar, with all of the shelling of civilians, cities under siege, indiscriminate attacks, lies and misinformation doing the rounds, you seem remarkably preoccupied with the Azov issue.

Tigersonvaseline · 04/03/2022 20:33
  • oh yes, hadn't considered the corruption element!!

Remember Afghanistan!

Roussette · 04/03/2022 20:36

To add to my post..

Some 87,000 properties have been bought via shell companies in England and Wales which prevents us from seeing who their true owners are (clue... Russians close to Putin)
UK properties worth £1.5billion have been bought by Oligarchs with links to the Kremlin
Over half is held in overseas territories and crown dependencies
British Virgin Islands, Panama, Isle of Man, Guernsey et al

RedToothBrush · 04/03/2022 20:38

StefanieBolzen@StefanieBolzen
Exclusive: British PM Boris Johnson @welton why Russia's Vladimir Putin 'is getting more, not less NATO', why Europe needs a common energy strategy & how nuclear plants in #Ukrainenow need to be protected ⬇️ English version below (1/3)

In joined interview with @antoguerrera @demiguelr the PM explains why UK despite Putin’s war will not join EU military cooperation, similarities btw Putin & Milosevic and why Russia's leader ultimately 'must fail' (2/3)

On #Ukraine crisis mending EU & UK #Brexit relations: 'Sometimes, if a family goes through some big trauma,the real strength of the affection btw members of the family& the way they work together can suddenly be revealed again' (3/3)

www.welt.de/politik/ausland/plus237325731/Boris-Johnson-Bin-zu-dem-Schluss-gekommen-dass-Putin-nur-scheitern-kann.html
„Bin zu dem Schluss gekommen, dass Putin nur scheitern kann“

TheSillyMastiff · 04/03/2022 20:41

[quote endlesscraziness]@TheSillyMastiff considering Truss encouraged British people to go fight, it would be a shit show if they arrested them on return. Yes other senior tories rebutted it but the Foreign Secretary suggested it! [/quote]
I know, hence why I said "no charges will be raised" and corrected information from a PP who suggested members of the foreign legion would face charges like those who joined the Kurds upon their return.

I'm not sure of you are agreeing with me, or think I have said something different. 😳 Apologies.

RainbowZebraWarrior · 04/03/2022 20:43

@Roussette

twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1499766468610863106

Buckle up. Come on a tour of London with a difference and find out how Putin's oligarchs hide and spend their money in the capital. Money-laundering expert

We have a lot to answer for.

That's what I said a couple of threads ago. Basically the current Government have blood on their hands.

And yes, I understand why some posters came back regarding previous Govts and PM's had similar form. But this has been escalated massively with Brexit and interference in recent elections. It's all become a bit endemic.

Roussette · 04/03/2022 20:46

And yes, I understand why some posters came back regarding previous Govts and PM's had similar form. But this has been escalated massively with Brexit and interference in recent elections. It's all become a bit endemic

Yes.

I can only talk about now because that's what matters at this moment in time

Jansobieski · 04/03/2022 20:48

All that copy and paste whataboutery above (@Bluebellsunderthetrees) reminds me of some pretty prolific posters who you could always trust to pop up and support brexit or the tories.Funnily enough not heard from them in a while Hmm.

alltheapples · 04/03/2022 20:53

@Jansobieski

All that copy and paste whataboutery above (*@Bluebellsunderthetrees*) reminds me of some pretty prolific posters who you could always trust to pop up and support brexit or the tories.Funnily enough not heard from them in a while Hmm.
Yes I agree. I wonder if the UK were invaded by military force if it would be justified because of our Nazi right wing.

Ukraine is not a perfect country. But they are fighting bravely to defend democracy.

Roussette · 04/03/2022 20:56

Ukraine is not a perfect country. But they are fighting bravely to defend democracy

I wish that was the last post on this thread because it sums it all up

RainbowZebraWarrior · 04/03/2022 20:58

@Roussette

And yes, I understand why some posters came back regarding previous Govts and PM's had similar form. But this has been escalated massively with Brexit and interference in recent elections. It's all become a bit endemic

Yes.

I can only talk about now because that's what matters at this moment in time

Absolutely.

That's what I said at the time. People can't keep harking back to and comparing to the past. It's the here and now that matters. And we need to learn from this. Furthermore, we need to remember this. Correctly and in context.

It reminds me of the whataboutery. Like the folk still saying "But, Corbyn"

Not relevant. The rhetoric needs to change. People need to get on board with what's happening now. And get their priorities right.

It's a real worry how so many Russian people have been brainwashed. But I see it here too in the UK. It's incredibly dangerous.

Tigersonvaseline · 04/03/2022 21:00

I'm not sure anyone doubted the ability of the UK to work with EU countries after Brexit.
Because it's a trading block and UK has been talking to it's neighbors for centuries 🤣🤣

The way relations are always... relentlessly framed through this prism of trading bloc that's been in existence doe the shortest time is weird.

Thankfully many older people on remain And leave remembered in those older brains a time before the trading bloc when all was absolutely fine.

Tigersonvaseline · 04/03/2022 21:03

Oh yes, what about Corybn??

Thankfully apparently cancelled along with his vicious evil cronies.

Keir starmer is getting a fabulous boost at the moment.

As I've Said previously...if we want to stop future corruption we need to look at how it started and London was drowning in Russian money ....well before this Tory party.

notimagain · 04/03/2022 21:04

@SmellyOldOwls

There was a professor on LBC this morning saying that because the Russians thought they were stationed around the Ukraine border as an exercise they reported back that all their equipment was fine but actually it's not and isn't all suitable for an actual war.

I think the jury elsewhere is still very much out on that and many are worrying that the Russians might decide to revert to how they want to fight an actual war.

A lot of what has happened so far, certainly in the north, can be explained by having the first echelon troops and their equipment in the (very cold) field for weeks before the invasion (so hungry and morale through the floor) and then being briefed they were going in as a liberating force, which might explain some subsequent tactics (or lack of them).

It appears to have gone (unfortunately) slightly differently in the south, so this is not simply a case of the Russians having very inferior equipment, there might be a lot more to it than that.

EsmaCannonball · 04/03/2022 21:04

I know people don't want NATO to get involved and potential nuclear war but I don't have confidence that doing nothing necessarily equals peace. We really need Putin to be taken out.

Roussette · 04/03/2022 21:06

We have to address what's happening NOW.....
Not talk about Corbyn and past misdeeds. There's been plenty. We know that.
Look at what's happening now.

Jisforjelly · 04/03/2022 21:07

@RedToothBrush what does that mean “he’s getting more, not less nato”?

Jisforjelly · 04/03/2022 21:08

@EsmaCannonball NATO is defence, not offence. Until a NATO country is at risk, we cannot get involved.