The invasion is a Week Old...Part 7

[Damnloginpopup]

Unbelievable. Thread 6 is almost full, to be found here : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4495271-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-6?pg=1

Still a fascinating and thoughtful set of documentation of our evolving thoughts, fears, questions, analyses and updates. And still a credit to the eyes, ears and knowledge of those on here.

Pinched from one poster on thread 6 whose name I can't recall:

Latest claims from both sides about casualties
Ukraine's army regularly puts out updates on the damage it says it's inflicting on Russian forces, which continue to press on key cities, particularly in the south.

We should stress that the BBC can't verify this information, but the latest update from the General Staff of the Armed Forces says that approximately 9,000 Russian personnel have been killed or wounded.

It also says Ukrainian forces have destroyed:

217 tanks
90 artillery systems
31 helicopters
30 planes or other aircraft
For its part, Russia yesterday for the first time gave a specific number for casualties it had suffered in Ukraine, saying 498 Russian soldiers had died and nearly 1,600 had been wounded.

It said it had killed 2,870 Ukrainian soldiers and "nationalists".

Thanks for the new thread @Damnloginpopup

@Tuba437 the BBC had a piece on the likely outcomes, they narrow it down to 5 possible scenarios:

Short War
Long War
European War
Diplomatic Solution
Putin Ousted

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60602936

Don’t want to be the thread police but just a reminder that it’s been requested that any links posted be in long form, not short form, so that people can see what they’re clicking through to.

@Peregrina

Turn down heating by 1C to reduce need for Russian imports, Europeans told

Meanwhile, in the independent from the EU global UK, we have to turn down our heating, which doesn't afaik come from Russia, because we won't be able to pay the bills.

In a roundabout way it would help if we used less gas, then Europe would need less Russian imports as there would be more Norwegian gas available. I've been using my heating less and have broken out the hot water bottle, thermals and blankets in the evenings. This says that most of ours comes from the UK continental shelf and Norway.

www.gov.uk/government/news/russia-ukraine-and-uk-energy-factsheet

I need to do some research to see what happens if Europe needs more supply from Norway, will it go to continental Europe or will our supplies be unaffected?

We are very exposed to global gas prices in the UK, despite 40%+ gas coming from the North Sea, it isn't keeping the prices down. It's going to be hard for many people, bills are now extortionate.

I'm so in awe of the Ukrainians and their bravery and spirit. Nobody could have envisaged a week on they would still be holding their own like this . They deserve for this to all stop soon and be able to live independent of that mad man

@BeOne
I'm not sure becoming part of a country that is currently a pariah state, subject to incredibly stringent sanctions that are about to tank its economy, is an entirely appealing prospect just now, for people in Transnistria or elsewhere. (I do realise that's not what you're asking, though...)

Please don’t shout me down, but I would really like to understand what will happen to the Russian people during all this. I’m not talking about the ££££££ people or the government I could care less. I’m talking about the people that are like us.

The sanctions have decimated their economy? What happens to them? This is not a war that they want I presume going by the protests.

And what good will it do when co-op start saying well we aren’t selling Russian vodka? Will this not start the beginning of hate crimes across all Russians? The way there have been against say Muslims.

God I feel like I’m going to being a ‘not all men’ type I’m not I am asking a genuine question.

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@Peregrina

Turn down heating by 1C to reduce need for Russian imports, Europeans told

Meanwhile, in the independent from the EU global UK, we have to turn down our heating, which doesn't afaik come from Russia, because we won't be able to pay the bills.

It will help if we do the same as the global shortage will push prices up everywhere

Been reading these threads, they've been so helpful to understand what's happening.

I'm just so angry at the whole situation, I feel so sorry for all the innocents caught up in this.

@ItsDisneyBitch

Please don’t shout me down, but I would really like to understand what will happen to the Russian people during all this. I’m not talking about the ££££££ people or the government I could care less. I’m talking about the people that are like us.

The sanctions have decimated their economy? What happens to them? This is not a war that they want I presume going by the protests.

And what good will it do when co-op start saying well we aren’t selling Russian vodka? Will this not start the beginning of hate crimes across all Russians? The way there have been against say Muslims.

God I feel like I’m going to being a ‘not all men’ type I’m not I am asking a genuine question.

I'd imagine not far off what its like for citizens of North Korea.

Teenage conscripts are not my enemy. well said.

Looking less like a rumour that Russia will implement martial law tomorrow.

Transnitria seems to be run by two families. Unsure how the finances work TBH.

What's the current legal status for returning civilians e.g. After the conflict is over?

Will they be allowed back? I wonder if Putin is using the refugees as an EU destabilising weapon which maybe why a ceasefire for safe passage has been agreed and why he held off attacking for so long? He wants people to flee, he certainly wasn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart. Putin (and Lukashenko) have history for doing this.

The sanctions have decimated their economy? What happens to them? This is not a war that they want I presume going by the protests.

Yes, the ordinary Russians will suffer and it won’t be Putin or the politburo elites. They are also suffering because of him and his generals. However, what is the answer? Can’t retaliate militarily. Doing nothing at all condones the violence and leads to Putin’s ever greater sense of immunity and omnipotence.

So economic and symbolic sanctions are the only options left. The scale and scope of the sanctions are, from my perspective, actually very heartening in terms of international condemnation of Russia’s actions. All that more powerful given the reliance on Russia’s gas.

@jgw1

The BBC have posted a clip of former Ukrainian President Poroschenko speaking today in Kyiv.

This is a man who less than a month ago was being charged with corruption by Zelensky's government and is now clearly fighting for his country.

What Putin has got wrong more than anything else is not realising how deeply passionate about Ukraine Ukranians are.

Absolutely, they are all pulling together, I really think Putin under estimated them.

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Watching Lyce Douset and Clive Myrie on the BBC news. The BBC reporting has been so powerful.

What I'm struggling to understand, and feel quite angry about actually, is how Putin and Lavrov can make bold statements like "the west are brainwashed" when they literally control what their nation sees and hears on TV / Radio and Internet

It's quite funny watching MN do a 180 on areas around this, because if we get into the the crux of your statment is
when they literally control what their nation sees and hears on TV / Radio and Internet

It's what MN in general have been championing for years, the road to hell is paved with good intentions and pushing into the tech scenario "it's a private company so they can do what they want".

It would be funny if it was coming from some right wing website, but this site is all to happy to try and whip up hysteria of some topic and demand the government to intervine.

Just been watching BBC News and the Ukranian soldiers digging trenches in the forest. In a week's time, they could plausibly all be dead. There are no words for Putin's unbounded bloodlust. I know NATO can't intervene, but this is just horrendous

There was some discussion at the end of the previous thread about the fact that China is going along with some of the sanctions. The WSJ had a good article today about China's changing role and the fact that it's cozying up to the Russians just before the invasion is considered a major foreign policy blunder that they are trying to recover from.

China Declared Its Russia Friendship Had ‘No Limits.’ It’s Having Second Thoughts. - Xi Jinping wanted Vladimir Putin to join in a united front against the U.S., and he got it Feb. 4. Now the Ukraine war threatens to undo Beijing’s years long effort to become a world leader.

There's a paywall, so I'll c&p the first part.

In the months leading up to Xi Jinping making common cause with Russian President Vladimir Putin, the Chinese leader was focused on one country, and it wasn’t Ukraine.

His ambitions for alignment with Mr. Putin had one main purpose: presenting a united front against the U.S. The result, according to Chinese officials, foreign-policy advisers to Beijing and an analysis of public statements, was the Feb. 4 China-Russia declaration that the countries’ friendship had “no limits.”

Russia’s subsequent invasion of its neighbor is forcing Beijing into adjusting its foreign policy in a way that risks damaging relations with the U.S.-led West and undoing years of efforts to paint itself as a responsible world leader.

In Beijing, the ripple effects of a move that may cost China dearly are now sinking in, say the officials and advisers. Some officials say they are fearful of the consequences of getting so close to Russia at the expense of other relationships—especially when Russian aggression against Ukraine is isolating Moscow in much of the world.

Already, many politicians from Washington to Brussels have grouped Beijing together with Moscow as a new “axis”—a term giving Western alliances more reason to disengage from China and form closer ties among themselves.

“Elevating the partnership with Russia on the eve of its invasion of Ukraine was a massive foreign-policy blunder by Xi,” said Jude Blanchette, a China specialist at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank focused on international relations. “The cost is very real for China and is exposing the limits of Xi’s policy.”

China’s Foreign Ministry didn’t respond to requests for comment.

[quote Alexandra2001]**@sadpapercourtesan* @MumbleCrumbs* Please save your sympathies for the people these xxxx's are killing - there must be an awful lot of "bad apples"

These young men our are enemy, they know exactly what they are doing & if Putin ordered, they'd be in Latvia killing our soldiers and i bet your views would do an about turn.

The more Russians that the defenders kill, the less there are to murder Ukrainians.

My partners Nan was from this part of the world, the Germans saved her from the Russians who were animals back then and it seems little has changed.[/quote]
A lot of reports are that in fact they did not know what they were being sent to do, so no, Im not sure the ordinary rank and file did know.

As for WW2, the Germans did appalling things in Russian. I'm afraid that the more people are savage to the country they are invading, the more hate and savagery they get back.

I hate what's happening, I hate Putin, but I'm not going to hate ordinary Russian young men who had no choice about going into the army and don't want to be there.

@BeOne

After some really helpful links on the previous thread I've been reading up about Transnistria. From what I can gather they are fairly Russia leaning. Does anyone know what the general sentiment is there? If the Russian army was to turn up and declare it Russian territory is that something the general populous would find agreeable or would they be met with resistance like in Ukraine?

The Russian Army don't need to turn up there - they've been there since the 90s.

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[quote Alexandra2001]**@sadpapercourtesan* @MumbleCrumbs* Please save your sympathies for the people these xxxx's are killing - there must be an awful lot of "bad apples"

These young men our are enemy, they know exactly what they are doing & if Putin ordered, they'd be in Latvia killing our soldiers and i bet your views would do an about turn.

The more Russians that the defenders kill, the less there are to murder Ukrainians.

My partners Nan was from this part of the world, the Germans saved her from the Russians who were animals back then and it seems little has changed.[/quote]
I've mostly been skimming past your posts because you seem intent on war mongering, but this was horrible to read. Ignorant, bloodthirsty and racist from a PP pretty much sums it up.

The Russian Army is made up in significant part of conscripts. They don't want to be there, they're forced to be there and they're probably fucking terrified themselves. Save your misplaced rage for the people giving the orders. This kind of attitude is what leads to even greater division and Russian people who are not remotely part of the problem being hounded.