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The Invasion Has Stalled

999 replies

Damnloginpopup · 27/02/2022 18:07

So here we go. Four days in and the third consecutive thread on the conflict in Ukraine. The last two threads are a credit to the members of mumsnet. Who knows where thread four may find our world?

Thank you all.

Thread two : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4491025-The-Invasion-Continues

OP posts:
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13
herecomesthsun · 28/02/2022 12:51

well, she is an idiot - but someone made her Foreign secretary...

vera99 · 28/02/2022 12:51

Paul Brand
@PaulBrandITV 5h
NEW: Conservative MP
@TomTugendhat
says he’s spoken to ministers who expect that the government will alter its offer to Ukrainian refugees in the coming days.

He anticipates the UK will follow the EU and allow any Ukrainian to come here for 3 years without a need for a visa.

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 12:51

I would strongly suggest doubting the Russian statement about Liz Truss. You don't raise your nuclear alert status because one foreign minister (who you've previously basically called an idiot) said something that other states have said as well. It is a transparent attempt to sow division within a surprisingly united Europe.

MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 12:51

@vera99

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/02/28/boris-johnson-news-ukraine-war-liz-truss-sanctions-wallace/

2:28pm
So what did Liz Truss say?
On Sunday morning's media round, Liz Truss told Sky News:

If we don’t stop Putin in Ukraine we are going to see others under threat – the Baltics, Poland, Moldova, and it could end up in a conflict with Nato. We do not want to go there. That is why it is so important we make the sacrifices now.

Yes, there will be an economic cost here in Britain, there will be a cost in terms of access to oil and gas markets. I firmly believe that the British public understand the price we will pay if we don’t stand up to Putin now.

According to the Interfax news agency, Dmitry Peskov has blamed these five sentences - among statements "by various representatives at various levels" - for Vladimir Putin putting his nuclear deterrence forces on high alert.

This doesn’t include the sending them to fight line? I thought it’d be that.

Of these statements do people disagree with them?

DGRossetti · 28/02/2022 12:51

@Northernshepherd

Igotjelly I read that as Scottish staff not paid by russian company, although as pp says it's unverified
What's the betting they won't be able to claim anything from the UK government ?
CaveMum · 28/02/2022 12:53

@vera99 sorry I missed that it had already been shared. I get that no one wants a thread derail, but you can’t look at current events in isolation - you have to look at the background that brought us here.

Another thing worth listening to, for those with the time, is The Gathering Storm on BBC Sounds. While it mainly focuses on the USA and the rise of QAnon it also talks about the fact that we (the West) meddled in Russian elections just as much as Russia has meddled in ours. Yes the tactics were different but the West propped up Yeltsin out of fear of someone like Putin getting in. Worked well didn’t it!

Classica · 28/02/2022 12:55

@vera99

Paul Brand *@PaulBrandITV* 5h NEW: Conservative MP *@TomTugendhat* says he’s spoken to ministers who expect that the government will alter its offer to Ukrainian refugees in the coming days.

He anticipates the UK will follow the EU and allow any Ukrainian to come here for 3 years without a need for a visa.

they're really having to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing it. shameful but unexpected
vera99 · 28/02/2022 12:55

@cavemum - sorry cave mum that wasn't a criticism of you just I agree wholeheartedly with your comment about wider context and background.

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2022 12:55

They detest Liz Truss and are trying to cause friction, division and fracture in Nato and the allies

Very true but we all know this is his game, he has been fermenting & succeeding with division in the EU (and beyond) with his stated aim to break up western institutions... so we don't go around giving him the bullets to fire straight back at us.

But it does all come back to having ministers in position based on their stance on the EU, rather than ability, the tory back benches are pack with talented MPs.

We can also be strong diplomatically without being overtly confrontational & that is also got to be an aim too, as you said earlier, this war has to end before more killed/displaced or nuclear conflict.

After the cuban crisis, a telephone hotline was set up between the US and the USSR, i wonder if such channels still exist?

TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 12:58

It's the paragraph "if we don't stop Putin now...with the words "and it could end up with a conflict with NATO"

She should have just said "If we don't stop Putin now, we could see aggression placed on other European countries, which could lead to a greater crisis"

There was no need to say "conflict with NATO"

She's basically saying one toe over the border and NATO is coming for you.

CaveMum · 28/02/2022 12:58

@vera99 sorry (we’re getting very British here with all these apologies Wink) didn’t mean to sound like I was offended, I just know how frustrating it can be when the same links keep getting shared!

MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 13:00

@TheSillyMastiff

It's the paragraph "if we don't stop Putin now...with the words "and it could end up with a conflict with NATO"

She should have just said "If we don't stop Putin now, we could see aggression placed on other European countries, which could lead to a greater crisis"

There was no need to say "conflict with NATO"

She's basically saying one toe over the border and NATO is coming for you.

Hasn’t that been clear though?

The same way we got the line about one NATO troop in Ukraine

dreamingbohemian · 28/02/2022 13:01

She's basically saying one toe over the border and NATO is coming for you.

Well yes, that's how NATO works. Putin knows this. It's hardly escalatory especially as all sorts of people in Europe have been saying this lately.

MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 13:03

@dreamingbohemian

She's basically saying one toe over the border and NATO is coming for you.

Well yes, that's how NATO works. Putin knows this. It's hardly escalatory especially as all sorts of people in Europe have been saying this lately.

Agree plus we shouldn’t be soft on it no matter their response

We need to draw lines on what the repercussions would be

Keepyourheadscrewedon · 28/02/2022 13:03

Everyone is screaming blue murder about Liz Truss

But has anyone stopped to think he might be looking for an excuse for an even bigger conflict? To justify his actions taking anyone's words out of context?

This is why everyone has to be so careful, at such a moment of crisis anything can be misunderstood or deliberately misunderstood.

TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 13:03

It is, for every rational mind. But Putin is not entirely rational right now and the words that would have leapt out is "conflict with NATO"

We see it as a general overarching statement because we know it was "just words" but a declaration of "conflict with NATO" out of the UK Foreign secretary's mouth will have angered him.

Perhaps the included country Moldova did it. MOldova is not a EU member and is not a NATO member, so why did she include Moldova.

Alexandra2001 · 28/02/2022 13:04

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

Everyone is screaming blue murder about Liz Truss

But has anyone stopped to think he might be looking for an excuse for an even bigger conflict? To justify his actions taking anyone's words out of context?

This is why everyone has to be so careful, at such a moment of crisis anything can be misunderstood or deliberately misunderstood.

We are angry at Truss because she, above all, should realise this.
vera99 · 28/02/2022 13:05

From, behind the Time's paywalls basically saying these 'peace' talks are all just smoke and mirrors.

More than 400 Russian mercenaries are operating in Kyiv with orders from the Kremlin to assassinate President Zelensky and his government and prepare the ground for Moscow to take control, The Times has learnt.

The Wagner Group, a private militia run by one of President Putin’s closest allies and operating as an arm-length branch of the state, flew in mercenaries from Africa five weeks ago on a mission to decapitate Zelensky’s government in return for a handsome financial bonus.
Information about their mission reached the Ukrainian government on Saturday morning and hours later Kyiv declared a 36-hour “hard” curfew to sweep the city for Russian saboteurs, warning civilians that they would be seen as Kremlin agents and risked being “liquidated” if they stepped outside.

A source closely connected to the group’s activities confirmed that a total of between 2,000 and 4,000 mercenaries had arrived in Ukraine in January. Some were deployed to the disputed eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. Another 400 entered from Belarus and made their way to the capital.

The mercenaries have been told that Putin wants a brief pause to show that he is negotiating with Zelensky, but assured them that no deal would be reached and that the effort would be simply “smoke and mirrors”, according to a source close to senior members of the Wagner Group.

Zelensky agreed yesterday to send a delegation to meet a Russian team at the Belarus border but expressed scepticism about Moscow’s seriousness.
The mercenaries are awaiting a signal from the Kremlin and have been promised hefty bonuses for killings in the next few days and safe passage out of Ukraine before the end of the week.

In addition to Zelensky their hit list contains 23 other figures, including the prime minister, the cabinet, the mayor of Kyiv, Vitali Klitschko and his brother Wladimir, both popular former boxing champions who have joined the military fight against the invaders.
The mercenaries boast of knowing exactly where the president and his colleagues are in Kyiv and are apparently able to track them via their mobile phones. After Moscow invaded last week, Zelensky addressed the nation, claiming that Russian special forces were in the capital searching for him as “target No 1”. Offered the chance by America to flee, he said: “I need ammunition, not a ride.”

MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 13:05

If it’s those lines linked I don’t see that she has said anything out of place.

I thought it might be the people fighting one

StormzyinaTCup · 28/02/2022 13:09

@TheSillyMastiff

It's the paragraph "if we don't stop Putin now...with the words "and it could end up with a conflict with NATO"

She should have just said "If we don't stop Putin now, we could see aggression placed on other European countries, which could lead to a greater crisis"

There was no need to say "conflict with NATO"

She's basically saying one toe over the border and NATO is coming for you.

But that's exactly what will happen and NATO have confirmed as much:

www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_192455.htm

Singling out one specific person, who happens to be a woman, is ridiculous.

TheSillyMastiff · 28/02/2022 13:12

I'm not saying I agree with his viewpoint, and it may well be a tactic to cause friction and destabilise the current status quo of unity in the west, but one can see why certain words would anger a irrational man.

He knows he can't step foot in a NATO country, but perhaps has reached his limit of having it rubbed in his wounds. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And yes he's singled out a woman, no surprise there.

DGRossetti · 28/02/2022 13:12

He anticipates the UK will follow the EU

Why not lead the EU instead ?

OvaHere · 28/02/2022 13:14

It's domestic abuser talk writ large. Stupid woman should have kept her mouth shut. She made me do it. So on an so forth.

I don't see that Truss said anything that wasn't true and wasn't already known to everyone involved.

RedToothBrush · 28/02/2022 13:14

What was the difference between Iraq I and Iraq II?

Iraq I, had a clear and narrow object and exit strategy. It did not involve regime change.

Iraq II and Afghanistan were rushed plans with no long term strategy which became unstuck once the US / Coalition Forces took control on the ground. There was no military exit strategy. My beef with Iraq (and why I protested against it) was precisely because of that.

Political vaccums are as dangerous as dictators, because you have various groups vying to take that lucrative control.

You cannot have a completed military victory without a political one. Its the whole hearts and mind thing supported by a secure, stable and self supporting new government.

Iraq I and Afghanistan were always doomed to fail for this reason. Its little different in Libya either. Also see Vietnam. And in essence this recognition is whats now driving US foreign policy, because its become apparent that in a modern world, deliberately trying to change regimes by force is very difficult indeed. It has to have internal support and a predetermined alternative in place which relies on internal figures (See China for how its successfully done).

But the reverse is true in terms of successes in Bosnia and the post WWII settlement (including much of the later fall of the Berlin Wall which was ultimately led by the concept of self determination and largely bloodless - with some notable exception).

Putin has invariably made the same mistake in terms of trying to carry out an aggressive military war to ensure regime change. He thought there was much greater sympathy for Russia than their was and underestimated the psychological impact of bombs hitting your house and tanks rolling into your village uninvented.

Wars of true liberation, where there is some sort of natural successor who has broad popular support are a completely different ball game.

Indeed Brexits true failure doesn't lie with the decision to leave the EU. Its failure is due to its lack of thought out plan prior to the vote which there was consensus over. It created a power vaccum and failed very quickly to win over hearts and minds as a direct result of this lack of clear path forward. Instead everyone fought over it (and is still continuing to do so as we can see from this thread).

I think with this conflict, its crucial to keep asking the key question about exit strategy. How do you enable a Russian exit strategy which saves face but satisfies Ukraine and the West enough and preserves a long term peace? Even if this intrinsically a very fragile peace. Equally how does the west plan for a scenario where so many have been displaced with Russia remaining an occuping force.

We don't just need short term promisesbof aid, but also much long contingency planning for the potential of a much more protracted problem.

Many of those who have left Ukraine, will like Bosnians before them, never return to their homeland even though its safe to do so. Many will return, to rebuild. If Ukraine does retain independence and peace returns we have so big questions to answer in terms of how they rebuild because they will be political and economically fragile. Stuff like, cluster bombs that need clearing up (there are international agreements to outlaw their use because they are viewed as dangerous to civilians as landmines and indeed in some ways are even worse because the bomblets look like toys. However both the US and Russia are not signatories to this agreement) and extensive infrastructure rebuilding (to repair not just homes but also the many bridges that have deliberately taken out by both sides).

We need to start doing this now rather than once the war stops. It also highlights why Zelensky himself is so important to both sides and why he is Russia's top priority even if they fail to take land because he represents a continuity of leadership and has popular support. If he goes, a power vacuum opens up, which can be exploited by Putin even with a Ukrainian victory. It is actually a really good sign in this context, that just so many MPs, including women, have stayed and taken up arms, to perhaps mitigate this problem.

MarshaBradyo · 28/02/2022 13:15

@TheSillyMastiff

I'm not saying I agree with his viewpoint, and it may well be a tactic to cause friction and destabilise the current status quo of unity in the west, but one can see why certain words would anger a irrational man.

He knows he can't step foot in a NATO country, but perhaps has reached his limit of having it rubbed in his wounds. 🤷🏻‍♀️

And yes he's singled out a woman, no surprise there.

Well that’s up to him to manage

I expect there a fair few limits being reached due to his actions Sad

And we want to know our position too which needs to be stated clearly