The Invasion Has Stalled

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So here we go. Four days in and the third consecutive thread on the conflict in Ukraine. The last two threads are a credit to the members of mumsnet. Who knows where thread four may find our world?

Thank you all.

Thread two : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4491025-The-Invasion-Continues

alexandra It is interesting that you thought I was referring to you. I was not, and yes we have definitely found an agreement after fiery early exchanges, and seem to all want the same thing now. I have no intention of ever blaming the Russian people for this, none of this was their doing - I think most reasonable people understand that. I have never heard that expression 'no reds under the beds' where did that come from? It sounds very racist to me.

*Kick Russia out of Ukraine

There is huge relevance in trying to understand the background and context to what is happening now. ‘What is happening now’ isn’t just the horrific bombs and shots being fired and dreadful daily death tolls. It’s also about more complex economic and political actions than any of the chief actors will ever reveal, some going back many years in the build up to this point.

Wars and invasions obviously don’t just spring to life fully formed from one deluded man’s mind. The more we can understand the context and background, how we got here, the clearer it will become what the best (or least worst) political solution is going to be. I’d like to try to understand what’s going on better. So I appreciate all of the illuminating contextual posts on this thread.

There is some info in that paper about an appeal and also an interesting article about two Russian oligarchs.

[quote SugarAndSpiceIsNice]@prh47bridge - It's Ukrainian Border forces. That thread has several videos showing Indian students facing ill-treatment at the hands and feet of Ukrainian forces. You can hear men and women speaking in Hindi commenting on what's going on. This has also been reported and corroborated by reputable news sources in India.
It seems Ukraine wants to help Putin by displaying how racist they are. Unfortunately African nationals have also overwhelmingly reported ill-treatment against them.
I'm really appalled at how selective European reporting is that such appalling, racist behaviour is not being highlighted.
You can be against Putin and against racism at the same time. It doesn't have to be either / or. Real life is not a fairy tale where there is a "good" one and a "bad" one.[/quote]
You may well be right, but I note that the India Times is more cautious. Their article on this video first states that it is Romanian and Polish border forces, then goes on to show a tweet stating it is Ukrainian military before saying that it isn't clear which country's border forces are involved.

@Zebracat

This thread is clearly going to attract people with an interest in history and politics, people who haven’t taken much interest in international relations before, but who have become gripped by current events, and some people operating on possibly a paid basis by interest groups. I do understand that it can be very hard to hear that stuff which seemed ok is connected to something that isn’t, like if a much loved friend suddenly goes to prison for fraud. However, it is the case that there have been longstanding and credible concerns that world security was threatened by Russian disinformation campaigns which affected the 2016 US Presidential Election and the Brexit Referendum. In addition there have been longstanding concerns that the Conservative Party and Mr Johnson in particular have got too close to individual and powerful Russians with clear links to Putin. This isn’t history, these are still current, and of course they are a concern, and of course it is relevant to this thread. I’m not anti U.K., and I won’t have my legitimate worries about whether this will affect our response, dismissed as some sort of unpatriotic smear.

This.

The Russian war chest has been blocked so it's difficult to see how Putin can carry on without completely trashing the Russian economy. Interest rates in Russia have just doubled to 20%
www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60553362

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60550992

It does look like a run on the banks may be happening. Similar happened several times in the 1990s. I remember watching the Reuters screen in 1998 when the rouble was ticking down at an alarming rate until trading was suspended. This will form part of the folk memory in Russia. There are people who's families saw their wealth decimated before and will want to grab whatever security they can.

whose

Exactly @DowningStreetParty

If you say you want to see a negotiated settlement, then it's absolutely crucial to understand the context and what got us to this point, because this is the only way to try to figure out A) what might make Putin back off, and B) how far NATO/EU states might go to stand up to him.

This is not the 19th century, there is not going to be one decisive battle between two armies with one clear victor. What happens in the political domain will help determine the outcome of this war.

Interesting piece by Yuval Noah Harari in The Guardian

This is its conclusion:

Unfortunately, this war is likely to be long-lasting. But the most important issue has already been decided. The last few days have proved to the entire world that Ukraine is a real nation, that Ukrainians are a real people, and that they definitely don’t want to live under a new Russian empire. The main question left open is how long it will take for this message to penetrate the Kremlin’s thick walls.

www.swissinfo.ch/eng/defence-minister-unsure-whether-other-countries-would-help-switzerland-if-attacked/47385194?utm_campaign=teaser-in-querylist&utm_content=o&utm_medium=display&utm_source=swissinfoch
Interesting article on a privileged country, Switzerland, not in Nato, under pressure to freeze Russian assets, which I understand would be officially confirmed today following their Council meeting.

@Keepyourheadscrewedon

alexandra It is interesting that you thought I was referring to you. I was not, and yes we have definitely found an agreement after fiery early exchanges, and seem to all want the same thing now. I have no intention of ever blaming the Russian people for this, none of this was their doing - I think most reasonable people understand that. I have never heard that expression 'no reds under the beds' where did that come from? It sounds very racist to me.

Its a phrase from the McCarthy paranoia era in the USA (1950s) Red refers to the red army. A period of US history where anyone with any Soviet links was considered an enemy of the state.

I have seen an unverified story that staff at a Russian company in Scotland have not been paid today. Has anyone read or know anything about this?

Ive just read on the news that Putin has ordered hundreds of private militias to take out zelensky. Hopefully not true.

@FatFucker

I have seen an unverified story that staff at a Russian company in Scotland have not been paid today. Has anyone read or know anything about this?

If that’s true it’s horrendous. This is not the fault of the average Russian person.

Also seen zelensky to release any prisoners with combat experience.

Igotjelly I read that as Scottish staff not paid by russian company, although as pp says it's unverified

@Northernshepherd

Igotjelly I read that as Scottish staff not paid by russian company, although as pp says it's unverified

Ah yes that would make more sense. Terrible either way. Poor people, as if we aren’t all struggling enough!

Thank you @dreamingbohemian I have been following these threads since the start and have really valued your input. The well-rounded discussion and context has been one of the best things about them. For those who don’t appreciate this, I suggest you follow a news aggregator thread for factual updates, plenty are available.

@zebracat - thank you for your calm & clear post. It's important to understand how this situation has come about, as it has been a long time in the making.

Well a few said the same and asked for other threads to be used that were a better fit.

Obviously not everyone agrees so just ignore the requests and post what you want.

We can all look for posts we find interesting.

Take care when scrolling on Twitter at the moment. Reports of use of cluster munitions at Kharkiv and warnings that there is a lot of graphic imagery of bodies and people who've suffered catastrophic injuries.

Thank you @Fiefofum : )

Horror in Kharkiv . Bastard Putin!

Just checking in after turning my phone off for a couple of hours. Doom scrolling was affecting my mental health. I read a book instead!

But I do want to know what's going on without hysteria and catastrophising and this thread is excellent.

Thank you