The Invasion Has Stalled

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So here we go. Four days in and the third consecutive thread on the conflict in Ukraine. The last two threads are a credit to the members of mumsnet. Who knows where thread four may find our world?

Thank you all.

Thread two : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4491025-The-Invasion-Continues

I hope we don't ban RT, it was quite interesting hearing one of Putin's security advisors explain that they feel they have been very generous up to now allowing 'Russian territory' to continue - and in fact they have no intention of even allowing Ukraine to keeps its name post 'liberation'. He seemed to be confused when asked about the invasion, explaining that they were simply returning the territory back to the motherland, and there was nothing wrong with this. He believed that 'militias' in Ukraine paid for by the US and EU were responsible for the 'skirmishes' and that he was sure the special operation would be successful

Russia's intention is not to simply let Ukraine exist under their rule, but to wipe it off the map altogether.

This is not an especially encouraging as they go into talks.

The Royal Mint Gold site has just implemented a queuing system such is demand.

www.royalmint.com

@Cam77 We need to move on from what the West did in Iraq, going on about is as irrelevant as some saying "Thank God we don't have Corbyn in charge"

The only people to blame for what is going on in Ukraine is Putin & his Generals.

Putin may have had genuine concerns about Nato expansion but he has gone completely the wrong way about it and that makes me think it was always a diversion for him, he wants Ukraine back under his control.

the problem is Keep some people here will believe RT and turn against support for Ukraine & in turn, that may well dictate UK policy... as we see on refugees.

I think they should banned, as the EU has done.

Horrific as this whole episode is, it’s also shown me there are still some genuinely good people out there.

@Newrunner29
Isn't that just a whataboutism thou?
Not really, no. I like a media landscape that is diverse, that provides context, and that is willing to ask difficult questions when necessary. We had groupthink reporting over Iraq (war good) and it looks like groupthink reporting now (war bad). Again, I am against this invasion. But I am astonished at how easily major Western media outlets come together as one to assume one simple straightforward narrative which must not be questioned and emotionally drive modes of reporting - be it in favour of military actions or against them.

Isn't that just a whataboutism thou? However thoughtful?

It's an insight into the perspective that, broadly and crudely speaking, The West claimed moral authority for a variety of interventions and wars by virtue of democracy, liberal capitalism, freedom, and concern for human rights. More recent wars and interventions have raised tough questions about the ability to claim moral authority that is greater than anybody else's on the geopolitical stage.

What we might be considering now is that there are no geopolitical actors who can claim unquestionable moral authority. As adults, we may need to make decisions about which geopolitical actor is the least worst? Crudely, China (actual concentration camps and atrocities within its borders; battens down the contact that its people have with the social media elsewhere), Russia (eye-watering record on democide and human rights violations, and has never had a democratic transfer of power; as per China for restrictions on access to news and social media), or The West (with a record of interventions and wars that have consequences for people in countries elsewhere and use them to fight proxy wars)?

@nettie434

It was investigated in a huge amount of detail and nothing of substance was found.

Was that a typo because there was a huge amount of evidence that Russia interfered in the US election? And in the 2016 Brexit referendum but unlike here the investigation in the US was exhaustive and much more of the details have been published.

Not being funny but why would they have wanted Trump in office. I think he would have been more of a problem for them than Clinton

And if the Bexit referendum was thrown then again why.
The U.K. would be more curtailed as part of the EU than if there was any threat because Donald would have thrown his weight behind us.

Or is it a case of be careful what you wish for as Putin does seem to assume an awful lot.
That people will behave in a certain way and seems surprised when they don’t follow how he played it out in his head.

Even if there was no retaliation by anyone I really can’t see how nuking Ukraine is going to do anything apart from making the Ukraine people more angry and determined to fight back.

I do think that in Putins head he expected the reception that Hitler got in 1938 when German tanks rolled into Austria.
And he is now resorting to playground tactics and threats of bringing bigger weaponry out and expecting compliance. Instead we have Ukrainians figuratively standing out on the street shouting “come and have a go if you think your hard enough”

Hopefully peace talks can get Russian soldiers out of Ukraine but my expectation is Putin thinks these talks are about brokering a deal for Russia to take over

@Alexandra2001

No - we need to insist that international laws are followed by ALL. And that wars lf aggression are never excused away. When the West makes excuses for its war of aggresions - even acting completely without UN backing, and commits war crimes, then Russia and China etc etc will take note. And then what moral position can the West possibly assume concerning war of aggression / war crimes /civilian deaths toward other states, when it does not recognise these terms as applying to itself.

I have to give it to him he loves the roar of the crowd and the smell of the greasepaint.

In addition there have been longstanding concerns that the Conservative Party and Mr Johnson in particular have got too close to individual and powerful Russians with clear links to Putin.

Yes, that is true, and I can understand the relevance. But for balance one also might want to recall that the alternative at the last election wasJeremy Corbyn, whose letter saying this was all the fault of Nato and the British Government sabre rattling and not accepting Russians legitmate security concerns landed literally days before Putin invaded (and he took 11 Labor MPs with him). This also being the person who refused for ages to accept that Russia was behind the Salisbury poisoning.

As a life-long labour voter who voted for Johnson, despite Brexit, because the alternative was so much worse, I still think that is the case. The tentacles of Russian influence definitely exist in the Conservative Party, but nothing like the kind of hold it has on large and vocal sections of the Labour Party. While I have a lot of time for Keir Starmer, the reality is that were he Prime Minister, he would be battling his own party almost certainly more significantly than Johnson is having to battle his, and even less would have been done. I wish there was the fantasy perfect leader out there, but at the moment in UK politics, you need to look at who we have as options now, and that is also desperately important to assess.

@dreamingbohemian

(Sorry for the long post!)

Don't be. You've provided so much excellent analysis on the three threads and I hope you continue to do so.

I just want to thank whoever mentioned the Facebook group called simple politics. They are outlining everything in bullet points throughout the day which is an excellent way of updating.

The entry on “Ukraine” in Kids.britannica.com (don’t know how to do direct link, sorry) is simple and informative. Potted history of Ukraine and its history going back thousands of years but with emphasis on past few hundred years, then past 20 years and up to this week.

There were a lot more deaths than I thought during the recent Eastern breakaways.

Long long history of Ukraine’s swerves between different takeovers/Russia/Europe….

Hard to know where/how to unpick it all…
Hopefully some brilliant negotiator will appear…

@Wannago Interesting but have you got any actual evidence that Labour MPs are funded/influenced by Putin, who isn't a communist or even a socialist but a fascist, with more in common with many in the Tory party.

I'm just trying find pictures of influential labour MPs at dinners, functions and tennis matches with Putin supporting Russians.

Its always interesting that these sorts of posts always say something like "for balance/floating or ex labour voter & i didn't want Brexit"

Putin Trump and Farage strongly supported Brexit and who did their bidding? yep Mr Johnson.

If we are digressing to European politics, which I do believe is somewhat relevant, then Marie Le Pen will be toast if there are proven links to Russia and the election will be a walk in the park for Macron.

Its always interesting that these sorts of posts always say something like "for balance/floating or ex labour voter & i didn't want Brexit"

Why? I get you need all thoughts aligned for some reason but you just have to accept it’s the case.

@Wannago

In addition there have been longstanding concerns that the Conservative Party and Mr Johnson in particular have got too close to individual and powerful Russians with clear links to Putin.

Yes, that is true, and I can understand the relevance. But for balance one also might want to recall that the alternative at the last election wasJeremy Corbyn, whose letter saying this was all the fault of Nato and the British Government sabre rattling and not accepting Russians legitmate security concerns landed literally days before Putin invaded (and he took 11 Labor MPs with him). This also being the person who refused for ages to accept that Russia was behind the Salisbury poisoning.

As a life-long labour voter who voted for Johnson, despite Brexit, because the alternative was so much worse, I still think that is the case. The tentacles of Russian influence definitely exist in the Conservative Party, but nothing like the kind of hold it has on large and vocal sections of the Labour Party. While I have a lot of time for Keir Starmer, the reality is that were he Prime Minister, he would be battling his own party almost certainly more significantly than Johnson is having to battle his, and even less would have been done. I wish there was the fantasy perfect leader out there, but at the moment in UK politics, you need to look at who we have as options now, and that is also desperately important to assess.

Interesting points Wannago

Atm I’m appreciating that all party leaders are together on sanctions, less infighting is much better and good to hear.

We had groupthink reporting over Iraq (war good) and it looks like groupthink reporting now (war bad).

I'm completely bemused by this defence of Russia (under the guise of "I'm just bringing a bit of balance". The war in Iraq was roundly condemned in many places at the time.
There is no need to rewrite history to make the point that there will be propaganda and misinformation on both sides.

Thanks @Damnloginpopup : )

Can someone start another thread with just updates on the current situation? I’m finding that really useful and informative, however the constant brexit/boris interjections are making it hard to keep up with the rolling news and facts.

@Alexandra2001
On another note, talk of “blame” or responsibility can be applied easily to individuals or even companies, but they are meaningless terms when applied to states - let alone great powers/superpowers. What does it matter who is to “blame”? There are a country’s short and long term interests as perceived by the leaders of the day, and there are the economic/political/social/historical/geographical realities that shape those interests. Huge international issues and disputes don’t pop up from nowhere . Talk of “blame” is cartoonish in its simplicity.

We should condemn the invasion and try to get back to diplomacy regarding the key issues of contention for Ukraine, Russia and NATO. The current context free borderline demonisation of a massive country and people is not conducive to that. Russia isn’t going anywhere and the huge issues of contention for Russia will not be going anywhere in the short term either. There are more lessons to be taken from WW2 than merely “wars of aggression are bad”. The gleeful demonisation of Russia and the cartoonish portrayal of its motivations isn’t conducive to future peace.

Anyone who doesn't belive putin wants trump in power or Russia didn't interfere with elections need to watch 'active measures' documentary explains it all

@Wannago how can you be a life long labour voter yet vote for the most right wing free market obsessed version of the tory party ? The ideology is completely different. Not even close. For the lib dems maybe but Johnson nah....just come out that Dominic Raab accepted £20,000 from a russian connected to Putin who has actually been involved with money laundering. The tentacles can't get much more entangled than that. The labour party certainly hasn't had millions of russian roubles ploughed into their party. And to think that Putin's far right oligarchy on steroids authoritarianism has anything to do with the communism of the USSr is deluded. Putin is not a communist by any description. Hence the paucity of donations to the LP.

I'm just trying find pictures of influential labour MPs at dinners, functions and tennis matches with Putin supporting Russians.

Indeed so. The hard left always supported the Soviet Union, but that collapsed. What their stance is on Putin, I have no idea.

Has the current Labour party had anything like the same amount of money given to it by Putin's regime as the Tories have?