The Invasion Has Stalled

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So here we go. Four days in and the third consecutive thread on the conflict in Ukraine. The last two threads are a credit to the members of mumsnet. Who knows where thread four may find our world?

Thank you all.

Thread two : www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4491025-The-Invasion-Continues

@Roussette

twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1498017173792514051

EU announces it has agreed unanimously amongst all member countries to take in Ukrainian refugees for up to 3 years without asking them to first apply for asylum. Just been announced following a meeting of EU Interior ministers

And us?
We're a disgrace.

We are letting Ukrainian refugees/nationals in in, look at the BBC website

But the EU countries are nearer to them, and at the end of the day if you were a refugee you would be hpgling to the nearest country for safety

I meant to say that opthead, empress - if "Russia' counts as a founding member due to USSR, then surely all later sovereign states from the USSR were also founding members?! (especially given how many nuclear weapons were stored in Ukraine prior to the breakup, as mentioned in one of the links I read upthread too - sorry I'm losing track of where info comes from). In which case, this is an invasion of one founding member by another, and should (does it? Surely?) skip the veto stage with the security council?

we are here because Putin felt emboldened with the election of Trump and Brexit which played into his narrative of a disunited decadent west that wouldn't thwart his imperial ambitions.

Perhaps. These events certainly appeared to gratify him. But lets not forget the succession of ill thought out, blood-soaked military disasters authored by the West: Iraq, Libya, Syria, and not least the humiliating spectacle of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan. He alludes to these in his recent address to the Russian people, together will the cultural degeneration of Western society.

Also, while your point of view may well be valid, the irony is that this latest episode of Russian aggression only makes a second Trump presidency in 2024 more likely.

@yoolia

He has two adult daughters from his first marriage (and at least one grandchild) and its rumoured he has maybe three younger children with that former Russian Olympic gymnast.

Does he have a wife now?

@Alexandra2001

I think some view UK actions through a very negative lens and the opposite for EU no matter what

I’d prefer more balance but I’m probably in the minority

I ve been on here long enough to realise that you will always take the Con/BJ side and always a negative against the EU or Labour.

There is a huge amount of evidence that shows that BJ and the Tory party have done almost nothing against Russian money, even a dissident in London today said exactly the same thing (re Londongrad) but its always a pro BJ response from you, whilst pleading neutrality and balance or the best one "i'm a floating voter"

Then you’d be wrong. I voted remain - and couldn’t have been more of a staunch remainer - and have voted Labour and am more centrist than anything

But find the anti U.K. rhetoric has become so pronounced on this site it is exhausting.

Especially now in a crisis

I’d love to keep one thread more balanced and free from the politicking.

And before anybody accuses me of a thread derail we are here because Putin felt emboldened with the election of Trump and Brexit which played into his narrative of a disunited decadent west that wouldn't thwart his imperial ambitions.

We are here because Putin is a psychopath plain and simple. If anything he is likely to feel more emboldened now because there is a near 80year old in charge of the US and the EU showed through their vaccine shambles how bureaucratic and slow their wheels turned.

[quote notimagain]@Alexandra2001

How? Ukraine doesn't use Western planes, they use Russian made SU and MiG 'craft. they would need training to use, say a EuroFighter.

I think Poland may have or have had MiG-29s, not sure if they are still existent and could be “shipped”, but you are absolutely right about the training on anything that’s not been in the inventory before.

TBH Whether the idea is to send helicopters or fighters or some of both I’m not sure announcing it was the smartest thing in the world in current circumstances.[/quote]
EU Member Countries are in talks to supply Ukraine With Soviet-built jet fighters that Ukraine's air force can operate. Some EU countries plan to supply them. Any planes would be supplied directly by EU member states and not funded through an arrangement announced earlier for the EU to finance weapons deliveries to Ukraine. Ukraine's jet fighters are Soviet-built MiG and Sukhoi models. Some current EU members that were once part of the USSR-led Warsaw Pact still fly such planes or have old ones parked.

[Source: WSJ, today]

@tabulahrasa

Re zelensky

I saw a young Ukrainian woman on tiktok saying, she didn’t vote for him, while she liked him as a comic and actor she just didn’t think he had the experience to be a politician - but that he’s stepped up and is being the leader they need.

I'm a New Yorker. We had a similar experience with Rudy Guiliani after 9/11. As a mayor, he was a bit of a twat. When 9/11 happened he really rose to the occasion. He seemed to be everywhere, communicating constantly. He was honest with us about what was known and unknown. He did everything possible to keep us safe. He was really impressive. Unfortunately, he has now become a bit of a nutter, but back then he was exactly the leader we needed.

Especially since this seems to be a more measured thread

A shame it can’t stay that way - I find it easy enough to avoid elsewhere

Great thread. Sharing this analysis by Lawrence Freedman, an emeritus professor of war studies at Kings College London - his view is that Russia's errors in the first days of the war make it really difficult now to achieve their aims. Worth a read:

https://samf.substack.com/p/the-fight-for-ukraine?utmcampaign=post&utmm_medium=email

When Nobel Prize-winning Noam Chomksy speaks I listen - his conclusion gives me cause for concern.

"Whatever one’s views on international affairs, it’s clear that we’ve left the domain of rational discourse far behind, and are moving into territory with an unattractive history, to put it mildly."

truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/

Just had a look at Flightradar24 and now there are only two planes heading east into Russia. One from Frankfurt and one from Geneva and both executive type planes. What does that tell you. P

@natpaw

www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0014wm8

I don’t know if the link works (not very good at these things) but yesterday on the Today programme Tim Snyder from Yale University gave an excellent explanation on the historical perspective as to why Putin is doing what he’s doing. Worth listening

I really recommend his book Bloodlands. It's basically about how the Soviets went into Eastern Europe and slaughtered millions of people, then the Nazis invaded and slaughtered millions of people, and then the Soviets came back and slaughtered lots of people again.

I mean it's really depressing but it does give you a very good understanding of the region. And why the Ukrainians are putting up such a great fight.

@natpaw I am actually glad Merkel is not in office anymore. I think she did a good job of 'managing' Putin so to speak but I'm not sure she wouldn't be too cautious today.

@EsmaCannonball

Zelenskyy also won Ukraine's version of Strictly. (The footage is worth checking out.) Between him and Vitali Klitschko I'm starting to believe we should replace Boris and co. with Bill Bailey and Frank Bruno.

Vitali "Dr Ironfist" Klitschko is seriously hot! Sorry for the lightheartedness, but I have been imagining Russian troops being KOd by him as they attempt to break into Kyev. Not sure if he is following Zelenskyy's example but hopefully he is.

[quote vera99]Max Bergmann@maxbergmann
We are witnessing the emergence of a global power in this crisis: the European Union. I was confident that a Russian invasion w/d be a shock to Europe and lead to a robust response. But never w/d I have predicted the announcements from Germany, EU, and others. Truly stunning.

Whilst we have a PM that enobled the son of a KGB officer and Putin apologist and campaigned for Brexit that was intended to destabilise this bloc. Funny old world...

twitter.com/maxbergmann/status/1498006688703598592[/quote]
The irony is that this is what Putin has been worrying about - a large EU block, with an 'EU army' and the ability to collectively deny transit/trade as well as impose financial sanctions.

If you look at it outside of this situation (in which it seems like a great thing, being used to defeat The Baddie), then it is kind of alarming - that is a lot of power.

Nothing but admiration for the Ukrainians; literally finding humour in their darkest hours- the Pravda Brewery in Lviv is using its supplies to make Molotov cocktails and labelling the bottles ‘Putin is a Dickhead’.

Some expert on the news said he hasn’t crossed into war crime territory yet. If the Russians can be shown to be targeting civilians (the odd accidental strike doesn’t count) or,executing prisoners then that would be war crimes.

I've seen footage of a Russian tank deliberately running over and crushing a civilian car with an elderly man inside it (he survived, nothing short of a miracle, but the intent to kill him was there)

Could that be deemed a war crime?

Anonymous have hacked a number of Russian energy companies. I’m following them (Anonymous) on Twitter.

@huntersmum

Just had a look at Flightradar24 and now there are only two planes heading east into Russia. One from Frankfurt and one from Geneva and both executive type planes. What does that tell you. P

?

I have been following Lyse Doucet’s commentary on Twitter but this thread is also incredibly informative, thanks for starting, op.

Interestingly, this morning my teenager suggested that the social media updates from President Zelensky reminded her of the Katniss propaganda in The Hunger Games. It seems to be a very modern war and watching it all happen in real time is such a bizarre feeling.

@Pernot165

Some expert on the news said he hasn’t crossed into war crime territory yet. If the Russians can be shown to be targeting civilians (the odd accidental strike doesn’t count) or,executing prisoners then that would be war crimes.

I've seen footage of a Russian tank deliberately running over and crushing a civilian car with an elderly man inside it (he survived, nothing short of a miracle, but the intent to kill him was there)

Could that be deemed a war crime?

Possibly for the individual if they ever find out who it was….but not for Putin or anyone else senior.

@GreenClock

Anonymous have hacked a number of Russian energy companies. I’m following them (Anonymous) on Twitter.

Me too - fascinating and worrying in equal measure.

Agnès Callamard thinks Putin's actions may constitute war crimes:

www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/russian-military-commits-indiscriminate-attacks-during-the-invasion-of-ukraine/

it is kind of alarming

Yes, I'm terrified of straight cucumbers, 220v appliances and no mobile roaming fees.

The EU are clearly acting in an exceptional way in response to exceptional circumstances.

It's true that there are many arguments against them acting like this - but the biggest truth is that if they'd existed in 1939 and acted like this WW2 then the whole ww2 thing wouldn't have happened.

(as long as the fantasy-1939-EU wasn't controlled by Germany, obviously)

@MarshaBradyo but's it not anti-UK - your spin. Facts matter 'Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it.' And it's a thread on Mumsnet, not a brain's trust on whose weight proclamations the future of Ukraine depends. For the absence of doubt, I stand wholeheartedly with Ukraine but how we got here and who helped to get us there matter. After Litvinenko and Skripal you would have thought we had got the message he is a murderous tyrannical dictator who will stop at nothing. But apparently not forgive me if I don't wave a Union Jack and cheerlead for Londonograd and the millions showered on the Tories by kleptocrats who swam in the blood of their master's body filled sewer.