No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

@MistOverTheDowns

If you can't pass English or Maths GCSE, then university isn't for you.

This is why some universities and some degree courses have become a laughing stock.

No, I’m not convinced about that. As a PP said, some people have an academic profile that is dramatically skewed towards either verbal or non-verbal ability, so might perform very well in either Maths & sciences or English & essay subjects, but struggle & perform poorly in the other domain. There should be room for such people on appropriate degree courses, otherwise they’ve lost a very strong route for capitalising on their abilities.

Equally, there should be a “second chance” route for people whose secondary education was disrupted for whatever reason but have the raw potential to do well.

@Svara

Kids who are struggling who have any sort of diagnosis should be getting special exam arrangements. We are hoping DS will get extra time in English. DS was asked if he had extra time after a recent mock exam and the teacher looked shocked that he didn't. He is year 11 so I assume it's too late now?

The deadline for access arrangements is 31/3. I know because I have just asked college whether DD can have a scribe. Definitely worth asking, you lose nothing by asking.

It’s a good idea.
Maths and English are so fundamentally important.
If one cannot pass at grade “C” or whatever the passmark now is, then it seems insane to go on to further study.
Maths GCSE is eminently practical, it isn’t calculus.
As for English, if it stops “ Could of” , I’m all for it.

One problem is that GCSEs are now graded on a curve, so they are designed such that 1/3rd will fail English & Maths regardless.

I had to take my English GCSE 4 times to get a grade c. I then went to uni and got a 2:1 in my degree.

What’s a ‘hyperspecialist’ brain???

@TeenPlusCat

One problem is that GCSEs are now graded on a curve, so they are designed such that 1/3rd will fail English & Maths regardless.

This has always been the case.

I really think that if you don't work in FE or secondary education, or haven't had a child working on these new Give GCSEs, you should not comment. These exams are not "basic" and they are not "easy".

And if you haven't read what is actually proposed you probably shouldn't either

In other words, let's wait till tomorrow .

I remember being told in Sixth Form college on our first day that 10% of you will fail your A-levels! That was in the 80s

@ThatsNotMyGolem

Student numbers do need to be controlled though. We have too many graduates and not enough skilled labour. Higher education has become an absolute racket. Convincing young people that a degree in some Mickey Mouse subject, which will saddle them with £30k of debt, instead of doing a vocational course or apprenticeship for jobs we're crying out for.

This is very much the case. Skilled Trades are what we need, not more ridiculous degrees that are in effect, meaningless.

Also there is HUGE difference between “failing exams” and “failing to attain x and y qualification”.

Definitely you need to have English and Maths before you go to university. No university should be offering degrees to people who haven't. Fail as often as you like on the way, but if you cannot eventually pass this basic qualification you should not be in uni.

@MaggieMooh

I’m sure back in the 1990s you needed 5 GCSEs including Maths and English to be allowed to study A-levels. I’m surprised that’s no longer a requirement. If you can’t read and write I don’t see how you can pass a degree?

Trouble is the GCSEs aren't about basic numeracy and literacy.

You need to be able to do a lot more than "read and write" to get an acceptable grade at GCSE.

GCSE English doesn't actually test for basic literacy such as completing a form or understanding basic instructions. The comprehension element will almost certainly be on a poem or fiction extract so immediately detrimental to those who struggle with the "literature" side of English. The writing piece is also a choice, heavily skewed towards literature, i.e. choices include writing a poem or a piece of creative writing. In fact, the English "Language" GCSE still retains a lot of "Literature" style of skills, rather than basic literacy, which in my opinion should be transferred over to the literature GCSE leaving the "language" GCSE more concentrating on basic English skills such as form filling, understanding instructions, etc etc.

I think that it is unfair for people to be encouraged to do degrees with little prospect of a job. Of course do it for interest but I don’t think universities should be selling degrees without being clear as to outcomes.

@MrsPsmalls

Definitely you need to have English and Maths before you go to university. No university should be offering degrees to people who haven't. Fail as often as you like on the way, but if you cannot eventually pass this basic qualification you should not be in uni.

So what about young people who have, say, 7 top grades and 2 fails at GCSE, plus AAB A level? Such people exist. According to your analysis, if one of the fails is Maths, they shouldn’t be allowed to take up a humanities degree place, or if one of the fails is in English, they shouldn’t be allowed to do a science degree. What training path would you recommend to that person?

If you are going to study at degree level then GCSE in maths and english is a basic requirement.

...or a core competence anyway.

It’s interesting that none of the posters baldly asserting that this is a good policy are able to discuss their reasoning.

Either Maths or English being mandatory, I could understand, assuming equivalents are also accepted, but not both. Not as a blanket rule.

think it should be relevant to the degree, do you really need maths to do art?

Also it would deter many mature students surely.

what is a mickey mouse degree anyway?

I’m wondering whether deterrence of mature students isn’t part of the plan TBH @Nitgel

Which would be particularly stupid in the healthcare sector.

Here in Australia if you fail maths or English you don't pass the year and you have to repeat the year again or you can't graduate

@Missey85

Here in Australia if you fail maths or English you don't pass the year and you have to repeat the year again or you can't graduate

So the bar for a bare pass must be lower than here then? Or do you have 40-45% of the cohort held back each year? What happens with special needs in mainstream schools? Is there any alternative to HSC? (Assuming it is still HSC.)

@Pyewhacket

If you are going to study at degree level then GCSE in maths and english is a basic requirement.

I got A-C's in all my GCSE's except for Maths. Which I failed. I got A's, Merits and distinctions at college and went on to study a degree in Design where I got a 2:1. I have a lucrative career in the design field. Do you honestly think I shouldn't have been allowed to go to uni just because of that failed Maths GCSE I took, as a child, 20 years ago?

@Thoosa

It’s interesting that none of the posters baldly asserting that this is a good policy are able to discuss their reasoning.

Either Maths or English being mandatory, I could understand, assuming equivalents are also accepted, but not both. Not as a blanket rule.

Personally I think English has to be mandatory as it's pretty fundamental to have a decent standard of literacy to get a degree.

Maths, maybe depends on the degree subject, obviously essential for any degree requiring numerical skills, such as a science, business/economics, geography,. medical, etc., but maybe not essential for music or history?