No student loan for pupils who fail GCSE maths or English

[stregadelcucito]

Above is in a few of the papers this morning, new government proposals to control student numbers

I find this depressing, one of my kids is amazing at maths but dreadful at English (they are ND so no amount of tutoring, even if I had the money, will bring them up to the required level).

All my / DP’s GCSE kids are under such pressure already…

I wanted to ask, do you have a degree, but also failed maths or English?

Thank you

@MrsPsmalls

Definitely you need to have English and Maths before you go to university. No university should be offering degrees to people who haven't. Fail as often as you like on the way, but if you cannot eventually pass this basic qualification you should not be in uni.

Trigonometry GCSE is definitely vital for a musician at Royal College of Music...

Personally I think English has to be mandatory as it's pretty fundamental to have a decent standard of literacy to get a degree.

Well you say that, and I haven’t been near a lab since A level, so maybe I’m wrong, but surely those Maths & Science degrees don’t necessarily require the same skill set that GCSE literature analysis does? I’m thinking for some it’s just the opposite of the Maths situation. There are plenty of dyslexics who are geniuses at STEM.

I do have a foot in the world of neurodiversity (Aspergers, ADHD and so on) and specific learning difficulties (dyslexia, dyspraxia etc), though, so maybe the people with spiky profiles are more visible to me than to most.

Maths, maybe depends on the degree subject, obviously essential for any degree requiring numerical skills, such as a science, business/economics, geography,. medical, etc., but maybe not essential for music or history?

Quite.

Why does it have to be mandatory? Why is the decision to accept someone on the course being taken out of the universities hand?

There's quite a few of us on this thread with no GCSE or failed GCSEs with first class and high second degrees. Surely that shows that GCSEs do not hold you back. You wouldn't be able to get a 2.1 or above if you're writing, linking theory to practice, understanding, reflection ect wasn't good enough.

I'd be in favour of literacy and numeracy GCSEs as alternatives to English and Maths for the pupils who struggle. Concentrate on the core real life skills. I actually quite like the style of the 11+ exams for this as they are still at quite a "real life" level, but don't include all the extras that are required in GCSE but which most people won't use in later life (in Maths, say, trigonometry, simultaneous equations, whereas the 11+ includes simple percentages, fractions, simple algebra, reading timetables, etc).

I think the scrapping of the two streams of GCE and CSE and amalgamating them into one, GCSE, was a huge mistake. We need a lower tier of exams which are attainable to most pupils, and a higher tier for the more able ones. Being presented with an exam paper where you can "pass" by only getting a quarter or a third of the questions right is highly demotivating for the weaker pupils. It's soul destroying to look at question after question, not having a clue, wasting time on half-assed answers you know are wrong, etc. Far better to have a higher pass mark on an "easier" paper.

I have two degrees. The second is a first. I don’t have maths GCSE. I failed twice. I am quite bright and did very well at A levels. I am fine at functional maths. I had to do a numeracy test to get onto my second degree course as maths was pretty fundamental to the degree.

I think it is important that people who want to do further study have basic numeracy and literacy but I think it will be problematic for courses like nursing that used to be diplomas but are now degrees. There should, in some circumstances be another way of demonstrating competence.

I’ve got a problem ethically with any proposal that so fundamentally limits an adult’s choices based on their experiences as a child.

If you twinned this with a drive to get more mature students into HE it might be less problematic but at the moment a lot of funding opportunities dry up once you’re over 25. If you had a chaotic upbringing but turned it around this really limits you… and what’s to stop a wealthy family paying for their innumerate child to attend HE? It’s either important or it isn’t, there shouldn’t be a way to fund your way around the ‘problem’

Well I couldn't disagree more.
English is needed to express ourselves, verbally and in written form.

Maths,like I Said, people with a far greater mastery than I can't grasp simple investing and have theirs and their children money languishing in rubbish ISAs with 0.75 % saving rates.

I believe the skills taught me in my degree course have helped me become a very good researcher.
Even the odd friend who said they did their research for stocks ISA turned up only fund managers who they pay a large unnecessary fee too and still get back around 15 %!!

@Peanutgurgle

I had to do a numeracy test to get onto my second degree course as maths was pretty fundamental to the degree.

Perhaps that's the answer then. Uni's to provide numeracy/literacy tests of a nationally recognised level, for those without GCSE's, in order to qualify for student loan funding.

Maths is more essential than English imo, the standard of numeracy in this country is depressingly low. The comment from a pp about Pythagoras’s theorem being hard! It’s addition and division.

For me a maths competency test would be, where do you hold your savings.

I'm an English teacher. I have taught pupils at A-level who were also in my GCSE re-sit group. It is becoming more and more common for us to accept pupils onto our A-level course who haven't achieved the course requirement because 'bums on seats' equals cash. When school budgets are cut this is what happens. I wonder if the same app lies at HE.

@flashbac

To be honest I'm fed up of getting job applications from people with degrees who can't do basic maths or write properly. It makes the degree meaningless. However if there is a disability or ND factor in the mix then allowances should be made to allow them to pass the required GCSEs.

Allowances are made.in the form of access arrangements in the first place

Personally I think it’s fair. If they can’t pass basic maths and English then I don’t think they should be doing a degree funded by tax payers.

@user1497207191

I'd be in favour of literacy and numeracy GCSEs as alternatives to English and Maths for the pupils who struggle. Concentrate on the core real life skills. I actually quite like the style of the 11+ exams for this as they are still at quite a "real life" level, but don't include all the extras that are required in GCSE but which most people won't use in later life (in Maths, say, trigonometry, simultaneous equations, whereas the 11+ includes simple percentages, fractions, simple algebra, reading timetables, etc).

I think the scrapping of the two streams of GCE and CSE and amalgamating them into one, GCSE, was a huge mistake. We need a lower tier of exams which are attainable to most pupils, and a higher tier for the more able ones. Being presented with an exam paper where you can "pass" by only getting a quarter or a third of the questions right is highly demotivating for the weaker pupils. It's soul destroying to look at question after question, not having a clue, wasting time on half-assed answers you know are wrong, etc. Far better to have a higher pass mark on an "easier" paper.

I think at gcse there are two levels of papers. Certainly my son took the lower Spanish paper so that the maximum he could get was a 4 or 5 I think. I’m sure this applies for others but does depend on the school. A couple of local schools just use the lower papers as they get better results and students pass the exams.

No 0010010000.

Many many DC with Sen who need support never ever get it let alone access arrangement!!

How could they when pgce offers only basic optional Sen options? So teachers can't spot nor understand basic Sen? Then the senco isn't properly trained either with anything let alone knowledge , tips etc and the children muddle along?

Many DC who should have had all this help won't get anywhere near it

The thing is, if you cannot do maths or English, you shouldn't be going to university. You shouldn't be studying at a higher level until you've grasped the basics of a lower level. This is why degrees are becoming meaningless. Not all students NEED to go to university, there are other routes, and perhaps this will help to even things out a little bit.

FWIW all the places I applied wanted maths and English GCSE, or you couldn't get a place.. so it's not necessarily something new.

Linda I didn't pass maths And as I referenced in my previous posts my degree was vastly useful to me.

Have you seen the new letter grade GCSEs? I do not in any way agree they have a very low bar to get a grade 4.

It's not actually true that it is harder to get a grade 4 now post-Gove reforms and there is evidence to suggest that the standard of maths required to achieve a 4 has actually dropped by about a grade.

The papers are harder, but the same (roughly) fixed percentage of kids are passing, so the grade boundaries are lower.

The same percentage of kids are passing which means that any national problems with dire shortages of maths teachers are being concealed.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/4193016-GCSE-maths-pass-standard-has-been-devalued-despite-Gove

It can be argued that it is harder to pass maths when you don't have a qualified maths teacher, as many don't these days, but that's a different argument. Standards have fallen.

Re the student loans debate: what is dominating my twitter feed but hasn't been mentioned here that I can see - this change will NOT affect rich students. Rich students without maths or English GCSE, who can afford university without student loans will have the same options that they did previously.

The first is awful, and leaves no scope for people having a bad day

Isn't that what resits are for?

I don't think you can even get into uni in the country I live in without passing both Maths and English in our equivalent of your Alevels. I'm really surprised that passing at the lower level of GCSE isn't already a requirement in the UK already to be honest.

I think if you should have a basic grasp of maths and English before you even think about college.

I always assumed you had to have maths or English in order to a degree to be honest. Sounds sensible to me..

@oakleaffy

It’s a good idea. Maths and English are so fundamentally important. If one cannot pass at grade “C” or whatever the passmark now is, then it seems insane to go on to further study. Maths GCSE is eminently practical, it isn’t calculus. As for English, if it stops “ Could of” , I’m all for it.

See my post above. Have you actually seen current GCSE maths work? The absolute last thing is it is practical. It is utterly theoretical and therefore destined to switch off interest from any student who is not innately interested in figures. If my 15 year old could see a practical application in life for the maths she is learning, she might be more interested in leaning it. But prime factorisation and multiplying fractions together with no context is utterly meaningless.

@StopFeckingFaffing

I would be questioning the quality and value of any degree course that accepts students without GCSE Maths and English

I struggle to believe that your child is not capable of getting a 4 in English language with plenty of good teaching

I would be interesting to hear what your views are on Open University Degrees. The whole point of the the Open University is to give everyone a chance at higher education, people who wouldn't get into brick uni's & working people - where attending a brick university isn't possible because of kids, work & life generally getting in the way. Open university students do the degree in their own time, at home, they work it around their busy working lives or kids. They can be getting in from work tired, then going straight on the computer to study for hours, as you have assignment deadlines to meet. You have to attend exam centres to take your exams as well. This to me shows serious dedication & a willingness to learn, and any employer should be privileged to take someone on with those attributes. I don't agree with what the government are proposing, just because someone isn't good at maths it doesn't mean they won't be good at something else. This is my view anyway.

See my post above. Have you actually seen current GCSE maths work? The absolute last thing is it is practical. It is utterly theoretical and therefore destined to switch off interest from any student who is not innately interested in figures. If my 15 year old could see a practical application in life for the maths she is learning, she might be more interested in leaning it. But prime factorisation and multiplying fractions together with no context is utterly meaningless.

Mmm but sometimes you've got to work for things and that includes doing things that you really aren't interested in. It's a life skill.

Things are a lot different today than when I did A levels/degree. I was very lucky, I only had three O Levels (English Lit, Lang and Art). A levels were not possible as I needed 4 passes so I started a secretarial course, within a couple of weeks the college moved me to do A levels, not sure why, but I suspect I sucked at the typing and shorthand. I had undiagnosed ADHD so I struggled with concentration and focus. Anyway I got horrible A level results but as I was going to do Art, the Art school I applied to couldn’t care less as they judged me on my art portfolio and despite my A level results I was good at English and did not struggle with the dissertations.

If I had been at school now, there is no way I would have been able to do anything. Back then you could have A levels and walk into a great job, one that today you would struggle to get with a degree. Young people have it so hard these days. In order to do A levels you don’t just need a pass in the subject, but you need to achieve a certain amount of points, and even if you get the overall points needed to do A levels, you then need certain grades to do the subject. For example, even though a 4 is a pass, you need at least a 7 to do maths, a 6 to do science along with a 6 in maths to do physics, it goes on and on.

A lot of universities will not even consider applications for a degree unless you have at least. 5 in maths and english, and in some high demand course such as medicine, dentistry etc they will want 9s.

I did go back to college one afternoon a week after my degree to get a GCSE in maths, but I did this for myself not because I needed to.

But what I do think is important is that the UK is in the bottom three at both literacy and numeracy when compared with the rest of the world. This is not with the population as a whole, but at university level.

.

Going to university