Why do schools finish at 3?

[snowdropsandcrocuses]

Genuine question but before teachers come gunning for me, let me explain.

In particular I am referring to secondary schools here and have just been reading the thread on teachers having ridiculously short lunch breaks which got me thinking.

Why is there such a rush to finish school early? Finishing school at 4pm for example, would allow longer lunch breaks (giving teachers and pupils a full break plus allowing lunch clubs more time), could factor in a little more transition time and just take a bit of pressure off. It would definitely help parents as well. I'm struggling to see the negatives. This is not to say I want teachers to work even harder because I don't but I wonder if there is a particular mandate that dictates the maximum 'opening hours' of comprehensive schools?

affairsofdragons

Just going to add vandalism to your list

It was like watching an Attenborough narrated episode where you could see the different groups, dynamics and the opportunities/taking of opportunities for mayhem. The fluid mechanics of a fight brewing are only different in that your average herd of Zebra don't sprint across specifically to watch the lions tear gazelles limb from limb whilst the Giraffes deliberately cause a diversion to increase the disorientation of any elephants thinking of stopping the entertainment and to have a secondary scrap with the birds that are usually sat on the hippos' arses.

Brilliant and sadly accurate in so many ways.

No they do not. Can you imagine if the government tried to increase the hours of hospital staff to 12-13 hours a day for 6 week periods, for no extra pay? My cousin who is a nurse works 3 such shifts a week, and that's full time. Which is only right, it's a 36 hour week after all. Any additional shifts (and granted, there has been a lot) are paid overtime, and are voluntary. If they were forced to do over 50% more for no extra pay, there'd be an immediate national strike.

Sorry, I meant to reply to @AlexaShutUp!

I’m SLT and I wouldn’t want to impose a longer day on our school staff. We are at full capacity as it is.

I’m in at 7am and don’t leave before 5pm as it stands. I don’t take any breaks at all, it’s a coffee in a meeting or sandwich on the hop, and I know that’s the same for the majority of staff at school.

Many of our teachers and support staff run before or after school clubs. Staff are rota’d on to break and lunch duties, after school patrols, to cover detentions and extra interventions for underperforming pupils. It’s a long and busy day. And covid .

We are an inner city London secondary in an area of high deprivation and high need, though. Supervising our pupils and the safeguarding implications are massive concerns for us.I wouldn’t want to keep children or staff in school any longer than they already are. Perhaps what is workable is different elsewhere.

try telling that to NHS staff, they often work 12 or 13 hour shifts

3 shifts a week. Not 5. And you don’t find them taking half of their essential work home to do for the next day. Nor do they spend time tweaking work at home that has already been planned but based on what happened today, needs a bit of a shift to get the best out of it tomorrow. And whilst I fully accept NHS staff frequently don’t get breaks or a lunch hour, I’m not sure we should advocate that makes it OK for other professions to have the same experience. All of us deserve some down time during our working day, to switch off, eat a sandwich in peace, chat with friends, make a phone call to the bank or manage any other life admin.

@whattodo2019

Private school i work in doesnt finish until 6pm

Better behaved students. Supportive families. Longer half term breaks and summer holidays, hence the longer school days when in session to make up for some of those.

My secondary school finishes at 2.45pm

Private school i work in doesnt finish until 6pm

What amount of time are teachers expected to be "on", either teaching or supervising from 8-6pm?

It is completely baffling that anyone needs it explaining why private schools are completely different. You can't independently make the link that when you exclude students based on both income and ability, behaviour isn't so much of a problem? Surprisingly enough, students who aren't getting their basic needs met because they're living in poverty, struggle to be model students when at school. And that's before you've even touched on the high adult/child ratio and oodles of space in private schools. Grammar schools are similar, as they've essentially selected on the same basis, what with the need for ££££ of tutoring to access them.

@snowdropsandcrocuses

Interesting responses.

To those who are surprised by the 3pm finish, our local secondary starts at 8:35 and finishes at 3pm.

To the teachers that have responded, I'm interested to know what your 'contracted hours' are. I realise that with the onslaught of academies which essentially privatised the school system under our noses that the old 'public sector' rules went out the window but I am assuming you all have contracted hours. What are you 'supposed' to work. I note some have said 8-4 would push them over their 40hr week however lunch breaks are not paid so 8-4 Monday to Friday would equal 40hrs - minus 1hr lunch/break which would equal 7hour days x 5 = 35hours.

I realise teachers work many many more hours than that - which is supposedly balanced out by your holidays (I know you work them too).

Working hours are not just contact time. Staff meetings, clubs, parent meetings, CPD hours and more are within the normal allocated working hours.

The weekend, evening and holiday work is not counted within the official hours.

@DarlingDarwin

All the teachers I know insist they work til 8pm most days anyway, so why not have the kids a bit longer.

Hmm, think about it.

According to you teachers claim they are working til 8pm. That would suggest they are doing up to 5 hours extra work per day non contact. So if they had more contact, surely that finish time would increase 🤷‍♀️

It's not either or. The extra contact time would generate more work, outside of contact hours.

@HoliHormonalTigerlilly

Maybe if schools gave kids activities to do outside at lunchtimes they wouldn't misbehave?!

Who will supervise the activities? Who will pay for the activities? Where will they take place? Many schools don't have ample spare room, and teachers often need an empty classroom to prep for afternoons and sort out things after the morning.

Longer half term breaks and summer holidays, hence the longer school days when in session to make up for some of those

Based on my own experience, the day was longer and so were main holidays.

Half term holidays were two days. Monday and Tuesday.

I really wish people would really their MPs over these issues.
We have parents complaining that their kids won't go to the toilet at school due to vaping/bullying. Other parents complaining that the toilets are locked at lesson times (to stop the above). Behaviour is generally good in lessons at our school, we have a robust behaviour system. The unstructured times are chaotic though.

@BoredZelda

The holidays are long, but I'm not sure an extended holiday quite makes up for the 50+ hours regularly worked a week in term time

Better than having those hours without the long holidays, as many of us do.

Feel free to retrain and teach. Then you can also benefit from the extended unpaid holidays too.

I admit I enjoy my extended breaks from contact time in school.
But they aren't paid. And we are expected to do planning and prep work in some of them - well not told to do so, but it'd be hard to do the job without using them.

DH went to private school and he finished at 4 but could stay till 5 or even 6 and have tea there if his parents couldn’t collect him.

I don’t think there’s much calling for it with secondary school kids because they can generally make there own way home be it walking, cycling or on the bus so they don’t need a working parent to collect them. I think it would make far more sense to extend a primary school day to fit working parents more since they need childcare.

I thought the hours spent in lessons between state and private is the same I’ve the course of the year as private schools gets longer holidays!

try telling that to NHS staff, they often work 12 or 13 hour shifts

This isca thread about teachers' work

Start your own thread about NHS staff.

Welsh Government have apparently been trialling longer days with the extra time being for funded clubs. It's a very small pilot and the TUs are very unhappy but it would be interesting to see the results. I don't think it changes the lunchtime though.

They also mention changing the school holidays.

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/longer-school-day-wales-trial-22399306

Mine are at indi abd finish at 4 officially (but in reality so much extra curricular rarely out before 5). Lunchtimes are also extra curricular including time to catch up with teachers for drop in sessions.

It's not the holy grail though. My daughter tells me plenty of kids sit on their phones for a hour and a half.

Sir Kevan Collins recommended a longer school day as part of his covid catch-up package for children that was commissioned by the government. He was very clear that it shouldn't be teachers staffing the extra hours and it should be focused on extra curricular after school.

Of course our government didn't go for it because it would mean actually spending money on schools. Sir Kevan resigned.

We had an hour for lunch. I think some people outside of schools would be shocked at the behaviour of many students in the lunch breaks. Teachers do not get paid for the lunch time, and they also need a break and time to eat to. Lunch time supervisors cost money, allbeit a very poor wage. It is difficult to find anyone willing to work for little pay, for an hour in the middle of the day, and who will put up with the behaviour.

As a result our lunch went to 40 minutes and was staggered so that the older and younger students had their lunch at different times. The behaviour did improve a bit - or at least was more manageable with only half of the school on a break at a time.

Many children do not know how to eat with a knife and fork or how to sit at a table and have a conversation with their peers. I am talking about 11 - 18 year olds here. Many parents don't bother to teach them table manners. I'm afraid by the time they have reached the age of 11 and don't know how to use cutlery and close their mouth when chewing then it really isn't my job to do that.

I already worked from 7 - 4 in school everyday in order to keep on top of the workload. I worked all day Sunday too. I could not even begin to explain why extending the school day would have been impossible for me.

Remember the teachers don't finish when the dc do. If dc were in school for an extra hour the teachers would be working say til 7pm not 6. Lunch breaks are short for a reason

The Welsh trial is interesting, but I don't see what the point of it is. Its no like the government are doing a trial on the basis that if it works, they'll fund it, because that's all ready been ruled out. As @noblegiraffe said, Sir Kevin Collins resigned over it. Maybe as the Welsh government is Labour, they're banking on a change of government before too long, then they can run with it as an evidenced policy, who knows? I can't imagine Wales will have enough £££ to I implement this on a wider basis without funding from central government, and it is most certainly not likely to become UK policy anytime soon. The Tories may fund a handful schools in select areas for the headlines, but they won't fund a national scheme like this.