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Original poster

Why do schools finish at 3?

327 replies

snowdropsandcrocuses · 04/02/2022 21:06

Genuine question but before teachers come gunning for me, let me explain.

In particular I am referring to secondary schools here and have just been reading the thread on teachers having ridiculously short lunch breaks which got me thinking.

Why is there such a rush to finish school early? Finishing school at 4pm for example, would allow longer lunch breaks (giving teachers and pupils a full break plus allowing lunch clubs more time), could factor in a little more transition time and just take a bit of pressure off. It would definitely help parents as well. I'm struggling to see the negatives. This is not to say I want teachers to work even harder because I don't but I wonder if there is a particular mandate that dictates the maximum 'opening hours' of comprehensive schools?

OP posts:
AlexaShutUp · 05/02/2022 09:28

[quote bendmeoverbackwards]@Poetree try telling that to NHS staff, they often work 12 or 13 hour shifts.[/quote]
I don't think NHS staff work five of those shifts a week!

itbemay1 · 05/02/2022 09:30

My DS used to finish at 2.30!

Chickenavocadobacon · 05/02/2022 09:30

@Hercisback

When I was at school we just wouldn't have dared-being sent to headmisress & then told off by your parents-just wasn't worth it.

Nowadays your parents would phone the school and defend your actions.

Oh, I do think statements like this are daft (sorry.)

Yes, some parents defend their kids no matter what, but it was ever thus. Someone in my brothers year once came into his primary class threatening to beat the teacher up, and that must have been circa 1988!

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General education
etulosba · 05/02/2022 09:34

Without supervision?

It worked when I was at school. Staff did make the odd cameo appearance but not often.

Hercisback · 05/02/2022 09:34

@Chickenavocadobacon

You must not work in a school, there has been a societal sea change. Behaviour as a society is worse for many complex and interwoven reasons. Schools are now in a position to react to this, not be the root of society overhaul; we can't do it all.

Prescottdanni123 · 05/02/2022 09:35

In terms of longer lunch breaks, my school went through a period of having 80 minute long lunchbreaks instead of 60 mins. It was a nightmare. It gave the kids too much spare time on their hands and we saw a massive increase in bad behaviour. Being back down to one hour is such a relief.

ambushedbywine · 05/02/2022 09:38

@snowdropsandcrocuses

Genuine question but before teachers come gunning for me, let me explain.

In particular I am referring to secondary schools here and have just been reading the thread on teachers having ridiculously short lunch breaks which got me thinking.

Why is there such a rush to finish school early? Finishing school at 4pm for example, would allow longer lunch breaks (giving teachers and pupils a full break plus allowing lunch clubs more time), could factor in a little more transition time and just take a bit of pressure off. It would definitely help parents as well. I'm struggling to see the negatives. This is not to say I want teachers to work even harder because I don't but I wonder if there is a particular mandate that dictates the maximum 'opening hours' of comprehensive schools?

Because face to face teaching is about 40-50% of the job and there is an insane amount of meetings, paperwork etc

So if teaching stopped at 4pm then it would just shunt all the rest back. Already many teachers work late into the night.

Blame the government/ofsted here. If we genuinely got rid of the many, many different data and planning requirements then likely there would be time to have longer school days without teachers keeling over.

TheFallenMadonna · 05/02/2022 09:39

Teachers aren't paid for 1265 hours. However, that is the number of hours when they can be directed to be in a certain place doing a certain thing. The hours needed to carry out the remainder of the requirements if the job are not directed. Breaks are not directed time. However, meetings after school are, and the later school finishes, the later these start and finish.

diddl · 05/02/2022 09:45

@Phineyj

diddl presumably if you'd been told off your parents would have taken the teacher's side? (mine would have). Not so much nowadays!
I don't think that they would take the teacher's side for the sake of it iyswim.

They would have listened to me of course but it would probably have been a case of you did wrong, got told off, move on sort of thing.

BooksAndHooks · 05/02/2022 09:47

With two hours homework a night plus travel time home it would make a very long day and impact the time for after school activities. Mine finish at 4.15 once a week and it is a struggle to get homework done and get to sports, have dinner etc at a reasonable time on that night.

Debroglie · 05/02/2022 09:51

A lot of the time it’s the school leaders insisting on all the extra admin, not ofsted or DfE. There’s so much crap that could be taken away from teachers that isn’t.
I would love a longer lunch break. We get 40 mins. And probably 80% of our students would be absolutely fine without proper supervision for an extra 20 mins but the remaining trouble-makers would make it impossible (and unsafe). We already have vandalism, fights, drugs at lunchtime as it is. And this is an ofsted outstanding in a very naice leafy suburb.

Chickenavocadobacon · 05/02/2022 09:56

[quote Hercisback]@Chickenavocadobacon

You must not work in a school, there has been a societal sea change. Behaviour as a society is worse for many complex and interwoven reasons. Schools are now in a position to react to this, not be the root of society overhaul; we can't do it all.[/quote]
It was my thread that prompted this one! I’m in my eighteenth year teaching Grin

Hercisback · 05/02/2022 10:00

OK well you must work somewhere with a different demographic to the places I have worked.

I have daily phonecalls from parents defending their childs behaviour. This didn't happen even 10 years ago.

spudjulia · 05/02/2022 10:00

erinnnnn
An hour lunch break would be such hard work. They are wild even in primary- not used to playing outdoors like back in the day.

It's such a shame, isn't it? So much learning happens through play at primary age and we're putting an end to it. Especially over the last 2 years when kids haven't been able to play together easily out of school. They shut playgrounds here in the first lockdown.

Chickenavocadobacon · 05/02/2022 10:04

I’ve barely had this @Hercisback, you are right, and I have worked in some challenging places.

Current school has a high proportion of students who speak English as a second language so I wonder if this is why, but then I’ve never had it even at schools where the majority are white British.

But certainly behaviour was dire when I started teaching, which was back in 2003. It wasn’t unusual for teachers to go out in the corridor in tears (I may have been one of them Blush) awful times.

I’m still undecided on whether things have got better or whether my teaching has improved. Possibly both. I think some academies have gone down the super strict route which improves behaviour but is unpleasant for the kids. But also I’m much more confident now and I know what works.

I did have the class from absolute hell a couple of years ago - year 8 nearly drove me to a nervous wreck - and nothing worked: that was awful. But as a rule, behaviour for me seems to have got better, not worse.

Lulu1919 · 05/02/2022 10:09

@ShallWeTalkAboutBruno

Why don’t independent schools have issues with the children being ‘wild’ and ‘causing havoc’ on hour long lunch breaks?
I'm a TA in a private school We have 30 minutes from end of lesson before lunch to the next bell for lesson after lunch ...they then have an hours lesson followed by 30 mins break. The children all eat together at the same time supervised by teaching staff and TAs who eat at that time too .The actual lunch break of 30 mins is supervised by two TAs in different areas for each group of children .
spudjulia · 05/02/2022 10:13

@TheMoth

I was a barmaid in my youth. There's a vibe you get when it's about to kick off. It's exactly the same in school as in a pub.
Hahaha same. I worked clubs/bars through 6th form and uni. You can sense it brewing by the demeanour of everyone else in the bar/playground. Door staff/teachers are normally out the door and in the middle of it before it had even started.
spudjulia · 05/02/2022 10:13

@NeverDropYourMooncup exactly like that 😂

FrippEnos · 05/02/2022 10:16

@RobotValkyrie

A bit of a continental perspective: in high school, the school day would typically be 9 am to 5 pm. Sometimes (because timetables are weird depending on year group and which optional modules you've taken), 8 am to 6 pm! And sometimes 10 am to 4 pm... Can vary a lot depending on the day... Lunch break is at least 1 hour between midday and 2 pm, sometimes 2 hours. You can go and have lunch outside school (home or a cafe, etc.), or have it at school. There's also lunch time clubs.

So yeah, rigid British timetable stopping at 3pm with no time for lunch is really weird. There's no reason things MUST be like that, it's just a choice.

What does the teachers and support staff days look like?

From my contacts they have fewer contact hours, have more teachers and get greater respect from children and parents.

FrippEnos · 05/02/2022 10:19

snowdropsandcrocuses

Although you say that you don't want to increase teachers work, who do you think will end up running these lunchtime clubs and extras?

Also there was a thread about lunchtime detentions, the demand for sanctions to happen during these longer break periods will be immense and again come with no extra pay. (Remembering as well that these clubs don't just happen but require organising and funding chased)

spudjulia · 05/02/2022 10:25

@Hercisback

When I was at school we just wouldn't have dared-being sent to headmisress & then told off by your parents-just wasn't worth it.

Nowadays your parents would phone the school and defend your actions.

And then start a thread on MN where everyone said the teacher was wrong to try to discipline the child/expect them to do homework
LincolnshireYellowBelly · 05/02/2022 10:26

@ShallWeTalkAboutBruno

Bloody hell, it’s no wonder kids play up if they’re constantly being told they’re ‘wild’ and ‘cause havoc’ and can’t be trusted to have a decent lunch break.
I can’t imagine anyone actually tells the children this! However, it is completely true. Unfortunately, with certain young people, the more unstructured time they are given, the more difficult their behaviours.
motherofawhirlwind · 05/02/2022 10:28

DD's school has just over an hour for lunch and they run all clubs at lunchtime so everyone can get the buses home and not have to get collected. Works well.

Groovee · 05/02/2022 10:32

Our high schools are usually 8.30-3.30.

Primaries are 8.50 to about 3.15.

Nurseries in schools 8.30-3pm.

affairsofdragons · 05/02/2022 10:33

I really don’t get why secondary age kids need to be supervised at lunchtime. I live down the road from the local secondary school and they all come down the street to the shops to buy lunch.

The fights. The drugs. The vaping. The alcohol in water bottles. The bullying. The inappropriate roughhousing. The language. The roaming of areas they're not supposed to be in at all. The unhappy local shops when shoplifting increases at those times, so they try to restrict the numbers of students in their shops.

Which schools still aren't dealing with appropriately because there isn't ENOUGH supervision. So shortened and separated lunch times is an attempt to cut down on all that at least, usually unsuccessfully.

I've three in secondary. The stories I hear are astounding.