Tustin and Hughes thread 2

[Bagelsandbrie]

Continued from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4416690-Emma-Tustin-is-a-murderer

How do we start at grass roots saying speaking to children like that isn’t ever okay? Smacking children isn’t ever okay? Attitudes need to change.

That’s such a tough one because we have to have a fine balance of allowing people to parent without the state breathing down their neck, not judging for different styles of parenting (some of the best parents I know swear in front of their children, though not at them IYSWIM) but also protecting children. I don’t know the answer! But it doesn’t need to be explored.

@DueyCheatemAndHow

Thank you xx

I live in an ok area, neighbours all seemed pleasant enough, one night I witnessed something really awful, parents clearly drunk and rowing, screeching at each other at 3am outside, toddler crying and hanging onto mums leg, dad (well step dad actually) got in the car and drove straight at them then braked and reversed and left. I phoned police and SS. Next day another neighbour happened to meet me outside and asked if I’d heard what happened to “Jane”, I asked “what?” Expecting to hear that “Dave” had driven the car at her, but no, the awful thing that happened was that someone had called SS on her and they’d come out to speak to her. I played dumb of course and pretended I hadn’t heard a thing. All the talk of the neighbours was that whoever phoned them was a scumbag and god help them if she ever found out who it was. I’ve witnessed some of her parenting since then, she’s still with the alcoholic, more children born, more drunken screaming matches, he even started on my child once. I just wish SS had been able to talk sense into her that time.

Sorrry my post should have read it DOES need to be explored 🤦🏼‍♀️

@Malibuismysecrethome

A quick google search shows that any fall over 50 ft is fatal. Even one of 25 ft. She would be in the medical journals. I don’t believe she fell 6 storeys she is an accomplished liar after all. What made me suspicious was a conversation I had with a surgeon a few years ago.

I did a quick search and the first result said "If you fell from 48 feet (about 4 stories), statistically you have about a 50% chance of survival. At 84 feet (or 7 stories), the mortality rate is 90%, meaning you'd be very unlikely to survive a fall from this height."

She wouldn't be in a medical journal.

Was the source about the jumping from a multi-storey car park an ex-BF?? How reliable is that information?

Bet the poor fella is feeling relieved he dodged a bullet though!

Oh yes I absolutely agree @Bagelsandbrie I have changed my own parenting so much I realised I had grown up with emotional abuse and coercion and threats of physical violence so that I didn't even know that's what they were, and with my own children I try to do differently and it has made me a bit of social pariah at times. I had a friend who was very volatile and when I raised a concern about her discipline methods she dumped me as a friend and made a malicious report to social services about me and my parenting (saying I had done to mine what she had done to hers and worse) it really rattled me but I found out that that wasn't the first time she had done something like that to a 'friend.' How do you help somebody like that? I don't know. But it is hard to be a social outcast as a mum, to be told your a 'mug' for not smacking your kids or putting them on the naughty step for ridiculous amounts of time. That your being 'sensitive' and 'precious' if you think it's not ok to have cigarette smoke breathed into your babies face, or get in the car with no car seat or a driver who's over the limit, or who has been smoking weed. Or to not wanting swearing and screaming around your kids. I'm the furthest thing from a snob, but been accused for being one just for wanting to keep my kids safe and look out for their welfare. I'm glad I've moved away from those Toxic people, and am more aware of safeguarding my kids than I was then myself as well, but it has come at a cost of me being much more lonely not going to lie. How do you convince people that it is worth going against the advice of everyone they know and their own upbringing? For me I had to actually go through abuse, I don't know what it would be for other people? But I don't think shutting down the sure start centres and reducing all the support for parents can be helpful. We need more input with vulnerable communities not less. We need more community centres and free activities for kids and families and places they can see good parenting, communication with children etc. Modelled.

I've met many anxious parents many who end up resorting to poor parenting (strictness without fairness or over permissiveness without protective boundaries, or a mix of the two). They don't want a pamphlet or website or stranger telling them what to do, but show them a more effective way to communicate with their kids that actually gets them to behave? A lot of people would be interested in that. I'm really grateful for the help I got when I wanted it to change my parenting methods, I know I'm not alone in that but I wish I hadn't had to have the catalyst of abuse to turn me towards a different path. If shouldn't have to take such a big catalyst. It should be so kick easier to access and open to more people. I had to fight really hard to get any help for anything in my life. It shouldn't have to be that hard.

I expect that many of the people who are livid at Emma Tustin are the same people who would fail to report concerns because either they don't get what this seemingly widespread, harmless, "everyone round here does it" lack of regard for children as their own entities worthy of as much respect as an adult can ultimately and tragically lead to, or they believe that "snitching" or "grassing" is cardinal sin to be avoided at all costs.

In the trial Affy was very clear that she wasn’t friends with Tustin and had only done her hair a few times but come on -!- they were obviously just having a good old chin wag, Tustins hair clearly didn’t get THAT much done to it! And Tustin refers to her as her “friend” on the cctv footage - “I was at my friends house”… not “hairdressers”. They were closer than the hairdresser wanted everyone to believe.

Yep and on the second day Hughes was there for the whole time, why would he be there at Tustins hair appointment if they weren't friendly?

@PrinzessinCressida

I expect that many of the people who are livid at Emma Tustin are the same people who would fail to report concerns because either they don't get what this seemingly widespread, harmless, "everyone round here does it" lack of regard for children as their own entities worthy of as much respect as an adult can ultimately and tragically lead to, or they believe that "snitching" or "grassing" is cardinal sin to be avoided at all costs.

I thought this too.

And if they had a rough-as-dirt neighbour who threatened to harm anyone who grassed on them, and they were a single mum to 2 kids, would call social services every time they heard her say fuck off. Doubt it.

I see she was missing in 2018 too, the police had an appeal but said she was found safe and well a day later. Not sure how long she was missing for before the police appealed though.

Hughes mum must be beyond devastated that her son that she gave birth to and raised could commit such appealing acts against her grandson

Appalling not appealing

Has anyone seen the CCTV footage on the sun of TH and ET stuffing their faces with ice cream while Arthur is in the hall?
Disgusting ☹️

@lastqueenofscotland

I’m surprised she didn’t get a mandatory life sentence, but I guess in a way she’ll never be free. I’d imagine as they get older and realise who she is that her children will want nothing to do with her. The constant fear that even if she got a new identity as an old woman that she’d be recognised in the street, even with the door closed and lock the prickle off fear that she’s been found every time there’s a knock at the door or the phone rings. People won’t forget this.

Facial recognition software will help immensely with that, too. These people won't always be able to run away from their mugshots and hide behind fake identities like they have done previously.

What really gets me is that there must be other children right now experiencing what Arthur went through, in varying degrees - hopefully not about to be murdered, but tortured and in pain, feeling scared and confused and unloved. It feels so hopeless. I wish we could stop it.

[quote PrinzessinCressida]@KurtWildesChristmasNamechange

Can social workers visit accompanied by police if deemed necessary? Is that something that should be in place if it isn't?

I believe there is a strong cultural trend to empower parents to make the decisions they see right and fit for their children (no vaccinations, deferred entry to school, etc.) and that this is perversely contributing to situations like this one, where outside forces have lost a lot of their powers of intervention in cases where that parental empowerment turns into abuse.[/quote]
You are insinuating a link between deferred entry to school to child abuse and murder?! 🙄🙄🙄🙄🤣 How absurd.

@Bagelsandbrie

I think there are whole sections of our society where stuff like this will go unchallenged and unreported because these people have such a low bar for what is acceptable treatment of a child. At the hairdressers house for example the hairdresser heard Arthur screaming (after he’d already spent 4 hours standing facing a wall in her hallway) and asked Tustin what was happening. Tustin said “oh Tom’s pressure pointing him and it hurts” - you’d think at that point the hairdresser would down tools and march out to find out what the fuck was happening in her own house, ring 999 or whatever, but nope. She said “oh okay” and carried on doing Tustins hair, for another few hours. These are the sort of people we’re dealing with. How does anyone get through to these people? Change the way they think about these things? It’s just horrific.

Totally....how could.you let a child stand there for 4 hours? This shit needs challenging.

It would indeed be absurd if that is what I was suggesting. Alas, your deficiency in reading comprehension is a real affliction I'm sadly unable to help you with.

@Kippersfortea

Oh yes I absolutely agree *@Bagelsandbrie* I have changed my own parenting so much I realised I had grown up with emotional abuse and coercion and threats of physical violence so that I didn't even know that's what they were, and with my own children I try to do differently and it has made me a bit of social pariah at times. I had a friend who was very volatile and when I raised a concern about her discipline methods she dumped me as a friend and made a malicious report to social services about me and my parenting (saying I had done to mine what she had done to hers and worse) it really rattled me but I found out that that wasn't the first time she had done something like that to a 'friend.' How do you help somebody like that? I don't know. But it is hard to be a social outcast as a mum, to be told your a 'mug' for not smacking your kids or putting them on the naughty step for ridiculous amounts of time. That your being 'sensitive' and 'precious' if you think it's not ok to have cigarette smoke breathed into your babies face, or get in the car with no car seat or a driver who's over the limit, or who has been smoking weed. Or to not wanting swearing and screaming around your kids. I'm the furthest thing from a snob, but been accused for being one just for wanting to keep my kids safe and look out for their welfare. I'm glad I've moved away from those Toxic people, and am more aware of safeguarding my kids than I was then myself as well, but it has come at a cost of me being much more lonely not going to lie. How do you convince people that it is worth going against the advice of everyone they know and their own upbringing? For me I had to actually go through abuse, I don't know what it would be for other people? But I don't think shutting down the sure start centres and reducing all the support for parents can be helpful. We need more input with vulnerable communities not less. We need more community centres and free activities for kids and families and places they can see good parenting, communication with children etc. Modelled.

I've met many anxious parents many who end up resorting to poor parenting (strictness without fairness or over permissiveness without protective boundaries, or a mix of the two). They don't want a pamphlet or website or stranger telling them what to do, but show them a more effective way to communicate with their kids that actually gets them to behave? A lot of people would be interested in that. I'm really grateful for the help I got when I wanted it to change my parenting methods, I know I'm not alone in that but I wish I hadn't had to have the catalyst of abuse to turn me towards a different path. If shouldn't have to take such a big catalyst. It should be so kick easier to access and open to more people. I had to fight really hard to get any help for anything in my life. It shouldn't have to be that hard.

What a moving post. I am sorry you say you are lonelier now but you really don't want to be hanging out with people whose standards are that low, who care so little about the welfare of your and their children. Can you make friends with people who share your attitudes?

@Srj15

Has anyone seen the CCTV footage on the sun of TH and ET stuffing their faces with ice cream while Arthur is in the hall? Disgusting ☹️

I have yes, no audio but you can see her clearly look to the hallway at one point.

I really don't think she thought of anything else other than tormenting that poor boy.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

and there are many threads about not allowing grandparents access to their grandchildren.

Slightly off topic but I think relevant to the discussion of how children are viewed by some, not as people, but as property of their parents. The term “access to” is an issue IMO. Children aren’t property to be accessed. They are people that grandparents can have contact with. It’s a small point but the language we use matters and is reflective of how we view things. We would never say we wanted access to our mothers, we would say we want to see her, we want a relationship with her, we want to have some contact with her. Not access to her like she is a room we want to get into because we have a right.

The problem with this is that those of us who grew up with abusive parents, who were never prosecuted, might be forced to enable contact between our abusive parents and our children (who we at the moment can protect from ever meeting them). I would rather die than subject my children to that.

SWs do make unscheduled visits, but the parents need to allow access - SWs don’t have the legal right to demand to see the child, much less see them alone, they don’t have the legal powers to demand access to the home - even the police need a warrant to access someone’s home without permission or due cause.

That needs to change for child protection, IMO.

@Harriet1216

and there are many threads about not allowing grandparents access to their grandchildren.

Slightly off topic but I think relevant to the discussion of how children are viewed by some, not as people, but as property of their parents. The term “access to” is an issue IMO. Children aren’t property to be accessed. They are people that grandparents can have contact with. It’s a small point but the language we use matters and is reflective of how we view things. We would never say we wanted access to our mothers, we would say we want to see her, we want a relationship with her, we want to have some contact with her. Not access to her like she is a room we want to get into because we have a right.

I hadn't actually thought about the term I used. When I said 'access to," I meant it in the same way as "having contact with." The difference in language is very slight but the end result would be grandparents being allowed to see a grandchild.
I meant that denying grandparents access to, or contact with a grandchild, should be prohibited.

My mother is abusive. I have no proof of this other than my memories. I have not had any contact with her since before my children were born. Do you think she should have a right to see my children? It's my job to protect them. What you are proposing could also have catastrophic consequences.

Agree that proposing that gps have automatic rights to see grandchildren is completely bonkers and dangerous.